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Post by Chocolate Bar on Nov 22, 2005 8:26:46 GMT -5
Jesus never "asked" Moses or Abraham to pray for him, did he?
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Post by heartofgold on Nov 22, 2005 14:53:43 GMT -5
Jesus never "asked" Moses or Abraham to pray for him, did he? How do you know? Frankly, there's a good chance someone back then did. This practice has been around as long as the Catholic Church, which has been around since Peter. And yes, it is asking. Nobody prays to the saints. |
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Post by Geberia on Nov 22, 2005 16:19:38 GMT -5
So they ASK TO the saints. okaaaay. Why not just pray to Jesus/God?
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Post by heartofgold on Nov 22, 2005 16:33:36 GMT -5
So they ASK TO the saints. okaaaay. Why not just pray to Jesus/God? We do! Praying is definitely a good thing, and nobody says this takes the place of prayer. But, using your logic, why do we ask anyone on earth to pray for us if all we have to do is pray to God? |
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Post by Triphus (Titanian) on Nov 22, 2005 17:51:42 GMT -5
very good question heartofgold! brilliant!
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Post by Chocolate Bar on Nov 22, 2005 21:25:13 GMT -5
Jesus never "asked" Moses or Abraham to pray for him, did he? How do you know? Frankly, there's a good chance someone back then did. This practice has been around as long as the Catholic Church, which has been around since Peter. And yes, it is asking. Nobody prays to the saints. The Bible does not mention it, so isn't it "dangerous" to have your own tradition to that magnitude? Also, I have heard two different things. Are you asking the Saints to pray for you or intervene for you? |
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Post by heartofgold on Nov 22, 2005 21:50:08 GMT -5
How do you know? Frankly, there's a good chance someone back then did. This practice has been around as long as the Catholic Church, which has been around since Peter. And yes, it is asking. Nobody prays to the saints. The Bible does not mention it, so isn't it "dangerous" to have your own tradition to that magnitude? Also, I have heard two different things. Are you asking the Saints to pray for you or intervene for you? I guess for the saints, you could technically call it intervening since their dead. But really that's all kinda technical. As for the bible not mentioning it, here's a scenario that must have existed using your logic. Its three days before Jesus rides in on a donkey, and he and his disciples stop and rest be a stream. Jesus says to them, "OK look, here's the deal. You guys are going to write a bunch of books and you need to put them all together and call it the New Testament. Another guy is gonna come along, Paul, you'll like him, and he's going to write a few books, but after that, as far as I'm concerned, nothing else happened. Nothing that doesn't end up in these books happened." My point is that the bible doesn't mention everything Jesus did. Of course, I don't know if Jesus did it. I do know, however, that nobody has ever committed a mortal sin by asking the saints to pray\intervene. |
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Post by Chocolate Bar on Nov 23, 2005 0:14:13 GMT -5
The Bible does not mention it, so isn't it "dangerous" to have your own tradition to that magnitude? Also, I have heard two different things. Are you asking the Saints to pray for you or intervene for you? I guess for the saints, you could technically call it intervening since their dead. But really that's all kinda technical. As for the bible not mentioning it, here's a scenario that must have existed using your logic. Its three days before Jesus rides in on a donkey, and he and his disciples stop and rest be a stream. Jesus says to them, "OK look, here's the deal. You guys are going to write a bunch of books and you need to put them all together and call it the New Testament. Another guy is gonna come along, Paul, you'll like him, and he's going to write a few books, but after that, as far as I'm concerned, nothing else happened. Nothing that doesn't end up in these books happened." My point is that the bible doesn't mention everything Jesus did. Of course, I don't know if Jesus did it. I do know, however, that nobody has ever committed a mortal sin by asking the saints to pray\intervene. There's the biggest problem with it. By asking the Saints to "intervene" for you you are elevating them and saying they are more important then anyone else in Gods eyes. Jesus us the only person who can intervene for you. Shouldn't we take Jesus's example? Jesus "asking" dead people to "intervene" for him is never mentioned. So, whats the point of asking the Saints to intervene for us? |
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Post by heartofgold on Nov 23, 2005 0:31:27 GMT -5
Acutally, some catholics have asked reletives to intervene for them, so its not limited to just saints. However, they are saints for a reason.
And like I said, the bible doesn't mention every aspect of Jesus's life.
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Post by Chocolate Bar on Nov 23, 2005 1:13:30 GMT -5
Acutally, some catholics have asked reletives to intervene for them, so its not limited to just saints. However, they are saints for a reason. And like I said, the bible doesn't mention every aspect of Jesus's life. saints yes, but they were evil humans just like us. (when they were alive) so why are they good enough to ask to intervene for us? the Bible mentions the most important parts of Jesus's life. if the Saints could intervene for us wouldn't the Bible tell us to ask them to do so? |
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Post by heartofgold on Nov 23, 2005 12:13:04 GMT -5
Actually, some catholics have asked relatives to intervene for them, so its not limited to just saints. However, they are saints for a reason. And like I said, the bible doesn't mention every aspect of Jesus' life. saints yes, but they were evil humans just like us. (when they were alive) so why are they good enough to ask to intervene for us? the Bible mentions the most important parts of Jess' life. if the Saints could intervene for us wouldn't the Bible tell us to ask them to do so? Saints are considered saints because they were really good people (in a nutshell). And like I said, some catholics have asked dead relatives to intervene for them (so long as there sure that dead relative is in heaven). I don't know if Jesus asked the saints to intervene for him. First off, he was the son of god, which I think means he gets some special privileges. But this practice has been around for 2000 years, since Peter, so I don't think its a sure ticket to hell. |
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Post by Chocolate Bar on Nov 23, 2005 12:18:39 GMT -5
saints yes, but they were evil humans just like us. (when they were alive) so why are they good enough to ask to intervene for us? the Bible mentions the most important parts of Jess' life. if the Saints could intervene for us wouldn't the Bible tell us to ask them to do so? Saints are considered saints because they were really good people (in a nutshell). And like I said, some catholics have asked dead relatives to intervene for them (so long as there sure that dead relative is in heaven). I don't know if Jesus asked the saints to intervene for him. First off, he was the son of god, which I think means he gets some special privileges. But this practice has been around for 2000 years, since Peter, so I don't think its a sure ticket to hell. Jesus was the Son of God but he was still human. He was tempted just like us. Jesus set examples that we should follow, the Bible nevr mention asking Saints to intervene for us. I know it isn't a sure ticket to Hell but still why do we do it? I don't think dead relatives or dead Saints can intervene on our behalf. |
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Post by heartofgold on Nov 23, 2005 15:22:44 GMT -5
Do you think living relatives and friends can intervene on your behalf (pray for you)?
And like I said, someone 2000 years ago thought this was OK, so the whole church did it. I don't think the entire church could have just been wrong for 1500 years. It it was wrong, where was the holy spirit who promised to guide the church?
Oh, and I'm going on vacation, so I won't be back 'till Friday.
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Post by Geberia on Nov 23, 2005 18:04:59 GMT -5
Hmm, then again, they thought for thousands of years that the earth was flat too. And they were wrong.
Just because its been around for a long time dosn't mean its the right thing. (But I knew you knew that!)
Wht about Mary? Is she in that Saints category?
And when people prayed in the Bible, as a person or as a group, they always prayed to only one person and that is God.
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alamo
New Member
Posts: 44
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Post by alamo on Nov 23, 2005 18:28:20 GMT -5
It is my personal belief, and is supported by the Bible. that we are all Saints when we accept Christ. As for answering the poll I could not because in the Catholic Church as well as in every denomination in the world, there are believers and unbelievers, only God truly knows. If you believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord and died for your sins and rose again on the third day. then Yes I believe you are a Christian. I know Catholics who are on both sides of that. A friend of mine who is Catholic says you have to be good to get into heaven and that the only part of the Bible you have to follow is the 10 Commandments and the Beatitudes. Those are both wrong in my opinion
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Post by gynovia on Nov 25, 2005 15:27:44 GMT -5
yes. thats the major issue.
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Post by heartofgold on Nov 25, 2005 18:04:07 GMT -5
Hmm, then again, they thought for thousands of years that the earth was flat too. And they were wrong. Just because its been around for a long time dosn't mean its the right thing. (But I knew you knew that!) Wht about Mary? Is she in that Saints category? And when people prayed in the Bible, as a person or as a group, they always prayed to only one person and that is God. OK, I'm back. Ahhhhh, but the holy spirit wasn't guiding the scientists who thought the world was flat was he? Mary is a lot bigger deal to catholics than other denominations, which I think makes a lot of sense because she was the mother of god. The basic catholic view on Mary (I'm going to get ripped apart on this one) is that she was sinless. WAIT!!!!! READ THE REST! Mary was sinless, but only through the grace of god. For instance, lets view sin as a big hole. We fall in the hole, God pulls us out. God kept Mary from falling in the hole in the first place. The basic reasoning behind this is this. Catholics believe we are born with something called Original Sin, inherited from Adam and Eve when they sinned. Original Sin is what gives us the desire to sin in the first place. If Mary had been born with original sin, that would have been a problem. For instance lets take that guy in the old testament who, when an Ox stumbled, put up his hands to stop the Ark of the Covenant from falling, and God struck him dead just for touching it. If this guy couldn't even touch the ark of the covenant, how could Mary, a sinner, have God inside of her and live? This whole thing, by the way, is called the Immaculate Conception. It is my personal belief, and is supported by the Bible. that we are all Saints when we accept Christ. As for answering the poll I could not because in the Catholic Church as well as in every denomination in the world, there are believers and unbelievers, only God truly knows. If you believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord and died for your sins and rose again on the third day. then Yes I believe you are a Christian. I know Catholics who are on both sides of that. A friend of mine who is Catholic says you have to be good to get into heaven and that the only part of the Bible you have to follow is the 10 Commandments and the Beatitudes. Those are both wrong in my opinion I hate to say this but I'm not sure your friend is a very good catholic. No, we don't believe that the only part of the bible you have to follow is the Commandments and the Beatitudes (or at least I don't, and most catholics you run across don't). However, you do have to be good to get to heaven. |
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Post by Chocolate Bar on Nov 25, 2005 19:28:36 GMT -5
Hmm, then again, they thought for thousands of years that the earth was flat too. And they were wrong. Just because its been around for a long time dosn't mean its the right thing. (But I knew you knew that!) Wht about Mary? Is she in that Saints category? And when people prayed in the Bible, as a person or as a group, they always prayed to only one person and that is God. OK, I'm back. Ahhhhh, but the holy spirit wasn't guiding the scientists who thought the world was flat was he? Mary is a lot bigger deal to catholics than other denominations, which I think makes a lot of sense because she was the mother of god. The basic catholic view on Mary (I'm going to get ripped apart on this one) is that she was sinless. WAIT!!!!! READ THE REST! Mary was sinless, but only through the grace of god. For instance, lets view sin as a big hole. We fall in the hole, God pulls us out. God kept Mary from falling in the hole in the first place. The basic reasoning behind this is this. Catholics believe we are born with something called Original Sin, inherited from Adam and Eve when they sinned. Original Sin is what gives us the desire to sin in the first place. If Mary had been born with original sin, that would have been a problem. For instance lets take that guy in the old testament who, when an Ox stumbled, put up his hands to stop the Ark of the Covenant from falling, and God struck him dead just for touching it. If this guy couldn't even touch the ark of the covenant, how could Mary, a sinner, have God inside of her and live? This whole thing, by the way, is called the Immaculate Conception. It is my personal belief, and is supported by the Bible. that we are all Saints when we accept Christ. As for answering the poll I could not because in the Catholic Church as well as in every denomination in the world, there are believers and unbelievers, only God truly knows. If you believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord and died for your sins and rose again on the third day. then Yes I believe you are a Christian. I know Catholics who are on both sides of that. A friend of mine who is Catholic says you have to be good to get into heaven and that the only part of the Bible you have to follow is the 10 Commandments and the Beatitudes. Those are both wrong in my opinion I hate to say this but I'm not sure your friend is a very good catholic. No, we don't believe that the only part of the bible you have to follow is the Commandments and the Beatitudes (or at least I don't, and most catholics you run across don't). However, you do have to be good to get to heaven. That Mary thing is out there and I didn't bieleve it at all. If Mary is sinless she therefore is good enough to worship. Is this true? |
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Post by heartofgold on Nov 25, 2005 19:58:08 GMT -5
No, she is only sinless by Gods grace. Without God, she'd be just like everyone else. Therefore she is not equal to God, so we can't worship her.
I repeat. She is not a god.
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Post by Chocolate Bar on Nov 25, 2005 20:04:58 GMT -5
No, she is only sinless by Gods grace. Without God, she'd be just like everyone else. Therefore she is not equal to God, so we can't worship her. I repeat. She is not a god. I still think she was a sinner. Saying she wasn't IMO is disrectstful to God. |
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Post by New Titania (TD) on Nov 25, 2005 20:48:11 GMT -5
Because God wanted her to. The angel came to Mary and said that she would bear the Son of God. Thus saith the Lord, right? Well, the people of Israel had been told to not touch the Ark of the Covenant under any circumstances, yet the man did and he died.
Plus, another way to look at this is that Jesus was fully God and fully Man. The God-Man. One could argue that touching the naked presence of God in the ark (kind of like when God revealed Himself to Moses) is too much for a person to handle, but touching God when He is a man is not. Hundreds, if not thousands of people were able to touch Jesus without dying.
I don't think Mary is sinless...I mean she was a young woman when she was pregnant with Jesus; I'm sure she sinned a couple of times before then. Sure, God forgave her sins (like He does for the rest of us) which completely erases your sins, but nobody except Christ is sinless.
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Post by heartofgold on Nov 25, 2005 22:16:16 GMT -5
What about Adam and Eve before the fall? They were sinless. What about the angels? They're sinless. The people in heaven are now completely sinless.
How so? It's only through God's grace that she is sinless. If it weren't for God, she'd be just like everyone else. She still needed a Saviour. So no disrespect.
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Post by New Titania (TD) on Nov 26, 2005 0:56:40 GMT -5
What about Adam and Eve before the fall? They were sinless. What about the angels? They're sinless. The people in heaven are now completely sinless. Must I be so specific? Adam and Eve SINNED. They were only sinless for a few days (as all of us are...I mean we're born, then we don't sin for a little while.) The angels are supernatural and immortal--Christ was a man. Fully God, yet fully man. Christ was succeptable to sin, but He didn't. He's the only human that has never sinned in their entire lifetime. |
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Post by heartofgold on Nov 26, 2005 11:23:02 GMT -5
The angels are succeptable to sin, look at Lucifer. Another point is being sinless doesn't make you good enough to worship.
But where does it say in the bible that Christ was the only sinless human?
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Post by Geberia on Nov 26, 2005 11:28:51 GMT -5
umm, yes Mary was a sinner. Have you ever read that passage in the Bible (please forgive me for not giving refrence) where Jesus was teaching in his house and Mary and her other kids came up to the door outside and started calling for him in loud voices? I mean, that's like someone standing outside a church screaming for you at the top of their lungs while you're inside trying to preach. Maybe not a sin, but definatly not something a sinless person would do.
Jesus, kindly and graciously makes the most out of the situation and uses them as an example in his message. "Who are my mother, brothers, and sisters?" he said (paraphrasing) "Those who follow me."
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