Christianity & Catholicism

[New Titania (TD)]

What the Catholics believe is that they are asking (not praying) to the Saints so that they can pray to God on their behalf...so yeah, in their minds, it eventually gets up to God. This practice, in my mind, doesn't affect Salvation--even though I find major theological issues with it.

[gynovia]

isn't Jesus the mediator between us and God? not saints. because, i've never prayed to any saints but my prayers have been answered.but do you think that God doesn't answer prayers to saints? i think he does.

[New Titania (TD)]

Jesus IS God.

[falklands]

The distinction between God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit is something we will never fully comprehend until we are in heaven with Him.

[Chocolate Bar]

IMO, when you pray to Saints it's almost like you are saying they are worth more in God's eyes. They have sinned like the rest of us so, why do we think that they are good enough to pray to?

[New Titania (TD)]

My hangup with the practice, exactly.

[falklands]

They do it from a mistaken sense of trying to honour God, because it is not actually honouring Him to pray to sinful creations of God, and also from a sense of duty to stay faithful to the Catholic Church. There are some things people will just not give up in order to stand by their beliefs, even if they do not make sense. Pray for them and everyone else, like we should do anyways.

[Geberia]

Amen, I totally agree!

[Armany]

Nice to see that we are reaching some middle ground in the debate. ;D

[falklands]

And what shall we define as the outer perimeters (e.g. what we don't agree on)? ;D

[gynovia]

armany said:

Nice to see that we are reaching some middle ground in the debate. ;D

hehe yeah!!!!

[falklands]

I wonder, what are our differences anyway? ;D

[falklands]

A few words from the Bible to sum this up:

James 2: 14:

"What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do."

"Ephesians 2:8-9: For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."

So we should possess both faith and works.

[New Titania (TD)]

Nice.

Thanks for pointing that out, Falklands.

[New Titania (TD)]

OK, to re-invigorate this debate.

You would be VERY VERY suprised how much you probably theologically agree with the average Catholic. They are CHRISTIANS too for crying out loud!!

[heartofgold]

Well just so you know I am Catholic, so now we can make things more interesting. (interestingly enough, I haven't seen too many Catholics on this thread).

I think I can sum up everyone's problems with Catholicism with a few statements.

1. No, we don't worship Mary.
2. No, we don't worship saints.
3. Yes, we are allowed to read the bible.

Now, so far nobody on this thread has gone as extreme as to say we do the above (though I have met people who have said that). But I will address things that have come up on this thread.

1. Praying to the saints.

Actually, all we're doing is asking the saints to pray for us, just like we would the guy next door (note: I don't know your neighbor). The saints just happen to be dead.

2. The "Fruit alone" thing

You won't get to heaven on your Fruit Alone, but you do need good works. (go read James)

Oh and by the way, we're all friends here

[steelsheen]

A Christian can be Catholic, but a Catholic is not necessarily a Christian.

Just like someone can go to church every single meeting and still not be saved.

[New Titania (TD)]

Steelsheen, that's the same with every single denomination!

[steelsheen]

I do realize that.

[Geberia]

Okay, Goldsmost, I see your points. So do you, as a Catholic, believe that the only way to heaven is through being saved and accepting Jesus Christ into your life by faith?

[gynovia]

thats the most important thing, because doing good works doesn't make it to heaven.

[heartofgold]

First off, my name isn't Goldsmost. And I don't see any Goldsmost on this page either (though he might exist somewhere, I don't know).

Second off, yes of course that's the only way to heaven. But here's a bunch of stuff from James. (NIV).

James 2:14-25
14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[e] and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Note: I didn't type all that.

[heartofgold]

Well, its been two days and nobody has posted anything, so I'm going to assume you all agree with me .

In other words, I'm asking someone to debate with me (if not on this issue, than another one).

[Chocolate Bar]

heartofgold said:

Well just so you know I am Catholic, so now we can make things more interesting. (interestingly enough, I haven't seen too many Catholics on this thread).

I think I can sum up everyone's problems with Catholicism with a few statements.

1. No, we don't worship Mary.
2. No, we don't worship saints.
3. Yes, we are allowed to read the bible.

Now, so far nobody on this thread has gone as extreme as to say we do the above (though I have met people who have said that). But I will address things that have come up on this thread.

1. Praying to the saints.

Actually, all we're doing is asking the saints to pray for us, just like we would the guy next door (note: I don't know your neighbor). The saints just happen to be dead.

2. The "Fruit alone" thing

You won't get to heaven on your Fruit Alone, but you do need good works. (go read James)

Oh and by the way, we're all friends here

Wht pray to dead people? Jesus never prayed to Moses or Abraham so why do Cathoulics pray to St. Peter and St. Paul along with others? I just don't see the reasoning behind it.

[New Titania (TD)]

The Catholics do NOT PRAY TO THE SAINTS! This is a very common misconception!! They believe that we can still communicate with dead people but not necessarily pray to them, so they believe that they are ASKING the Saints to pray to God for them.