Christianity & Catholicism

[Geberia]

heartofgold said:

Must I be so specific? Adam and Eve SINNED. They were only sinless for a few days (as all of us are...I mean we're born, then we don't sin for a little while.) The angels are supernatural and immortal--Christ was a man. Fully God, yet fully man. Christ was succeptable to sin, but He didn't. He's the only human that has never sinned in their entire lifetime.

The angels are succeptable to sin, look at Lucifer. Another point is being sinless doesn't make you good enough to worship.
But where does it say in the bible that Christ was the only sinless human?

Romans. "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God."
Romans again. "There is none rightgeouss, no not one."

This, even though written after Mary's time, refers to all history of mankind.

[heartofgold]

Have you ever read that passage in the Bible (please forgive me for not giving refrence) where Jesus was teaching in his house and Mary and her other kids came up to the door outside and started calling for him in loud voices? I mean, that's like someone standing outside a church screaming for you at the top of their lungs while you're inside trying to preach. Maybe not a sin, but definatly not something a sinless person would do.

Um, no, I don't remember that passage. Furthermore, I don't think Mary had any more kids, so I don't think Jesus had lots of brothers and sisters.

If I can find this passage I'll have something more on it.

[gynovia]

Okay the here are the references: Mathew 13:55-56 and another one Mark 6:3-. here it most clearly states that Jesus DID have brothers and sisters.

[heartofgold]

Romans. "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God."
Romans again. "There is none rightgeouss, no not one."

This, even though written after Mary's time, refers to all history of mankind.

You can't take that passage as literal as you want to. Look at Luke 1:5-6

5 In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron 6 Both of them were upright in the sight of God, observing all the Lord's commandments and regulations blamelessly

So apparently, certain groups are exempt from Paul's, all have sinned verse.

For instance, aborted babies cannot sin, nor can severely retarded people.

Mary's case would be very special, so she would be one of the certain groups.

[gynovia]

i can understand your point, but,was she severely retarded? she certainly wasn't an aborted baby. the bible says ALL have sinned. that includes you and me, AND i believe it includes Mary. is there a verse that sais that she did not sin? there is none righteous, no not one. ( excluding God of course)

[heartofgold]

gynovia said:

Okay the here are the references: Mathew 13:55-56 and another one Mark 6:3-. here it most clearly states that Jesus DID have brothers and sisters.

There are about ten instances in the New Testament where "brothers" and "sisters" of the Lord are mentioned (Matt. 12:46; Matt. 13:55; Mark 3:31–34; Mark 6:3; Luke 8:19–20; John 2:12, 7:3, 5, 10; Acts 1:14; 1 Cor. 9:5).

When trying to understand these verses, note that the term "brother" (Greek: adelphos) has a wide meaning in the Bible. It is not restricted to the literal meaning of a full brother or half-brother. The same goes for "sister" (adelphe) and the plural form "brothers" (adelphoi). The Old Testament shows that "brother" had a wide semantic range of meaning and could refer to any male relative from whom you are not descended (male relatives from whom you are descended are known as "fathers") and who are not descended from you (your male descendants, regardless of the number of generations removed, are your "sons"), as well as kinsmen such as cousins, those who are members of the family by marriage or by law rather than by blood, and even friends or mere political allies (2 Sam. 1:26; Amos 1:9).

Lot, for example, is called Abraham’s "brother" (Gen. 14:14), even though, being the son of Haran, Abraham’s brother (Gen. 11:26–28), he was actually Abraham’s nephew. Similarly, Jacob is called the "brother" of his uncle Laban (Gen. 29:15). Kish and Eleazar were the sons of Mahli. Kish had sons of his own, but Eleazar had no sons, only daughters, who married their "brethren," the sons of Kish. These "brethren" were really their cousins (1 Chr. 23:21–22).

The terms "brothers," "brother," and "sister" did not refer only to close relatives. Sometimes they meant kinsmen (Deut. 23:7; Neh. 5:7; Jer. 34:9), as in the reference to the forty-two "brethren" of King Azariah (2 Kgs. 10:13–14).

I got this of the internet, and also found out that in Hebrew there is no word for cousin, so they would use brother.

[gynovia]

so whats your point?

[heartofgold]

gynovia said:

i can understand your point, but,was she severely retarded? she certainly wasn't an aborted baby. the bible says ALL have sinned. that includes you and me, AND i believe it includes Mary. is there a verse that sais that she did not sin? there is none righteous, no not one. ( excluding God of course)

What about Zechariah and his wife Elizabeth? They weren't severly retarded either.

[heartofgold]

gynovia said:

so whats your point?

All the Early Christian's didn't think Mary had other children, and I don't either.

[New Titania (TD)]

Mary DID have other children.

There was recently found in Jerusalem a "bone box" where Jews in the time period of Jesus put their bones after they died. Inside of the bone box was the inscription "JAMES THE BROTHER OF JESUS THE CHRIST." Carbon dating has shown that this is from that time period. There are many references to James as being the literal brother of Christ.

[heartofgold]

I repeat,

In Hebrew and Arimaic, there is no word for cousin. So most of the time they used "brother". Brother is used very loosely throughout the bible, such as Lot being Abraham's brother even though he was the son of Haran, Abraham's brother.

[Chocolate Bar]

heartofgold said:

I repeat,

In Hebrew and Arimaic, there is no word for cousin. So most of the time they used "brother". Brother is used very loosely throughout the bible, such as Lot being Abraham's brother even though he was the son of Haran, Abraham's brother.

ok, you can not disprove the thought that Jesus has siblings. nor can we prove it, so we should just stop this arguements.

[New Titania (TD)]

Heartofgold, what do Catholics think about "The DaVinci Code" and the idea of Mary Magdelene being Jesus' wife?

[steelsheen]

Many people believe Jude to have been a brother to Jesus- it says in the Bible "your mother and brothers are waiting for you outside" (Paraphrased) (sorry, didn't realize we were no longer discussing this- I was reading the newest thread, thought it looked cool... sorry.)

[ashbash]

say jesus had siblings, say he doesn't...SO WHAT?
anyways, saying again... LETS NOT LOSE SIGHT OF THE BIG PICTURE
jesus lived and died to save us, and whosoever believes in him and puts their faith in him WILL go to heaven.
keep all arguements in perspective, please.

[alamo]

exactly.

[heartofgold]

Heartofgold, what do Catholics think about "The DaVinci Code" and the idea of Mary Magdelene being Jesus' wife?

Actually I don't know much about it, but from what I've seen here is my educated opinion:

So the Catholic Church is part of a big conspiracy. What else is new? People have been trying to pin the Catholic Church of something for 500 years. "Oh, they worship statues," and such. Everyone loves a good conspiracy book (rumor has it J.K. Rowling's next book is going to be called, "Harry Potter and the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy").

[New Titania (TD)]

LOL, love it.

Oh yes, the "religious right" and the oh-so-evil Catholics are always conspiring to take over the world....

[gynovia]

LOL, ok i just noticed this, why does nearly everyone have the little thing in their signature, TD-Armany, prez-veep, a better tomorrow?sorry. i'm off the subject.

[Armany]

heartofgold said:

Romans. "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God."
Romans again. "There is none rightgeouss, no not one."

This, even though written after Mary's time, refers to all history of mankind.

You can't take that passage as literal as you want to. Look at Luke 1:5-6

5 In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron 6 Both of them were upright in the sight of God, observing all the Lord's commandments and regulations blamelessly

So apparently, certain groups are exempt from Paul's, all have sinned verse.

For instance, aborted babies cannot sin, nor can severely retarded people.

Mary's case would be very special, so she would be one of the certain groups.

Haven't really followed this debate yet, but this post caught my attention.

Heartofgold, are you maintaining that there indeed are people who never sin and fall short of the glory of God? I agree with you on the part of babies that never see the light of day (though they by their very human nature are sinful), but as to your statement that priestly families (in this case Zechariah, but also making a general statement about all Judaic priests) are "blameless" and pure, I disagree on the basis of logic.

Hebrews 7:26-28, NIV:
26Such a high priest [reference to Jesus; see above verses] meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. 27Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 28For the law appoints as high priests men who are weak; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.

In this passage, Paul clearly is saying that high priests, no matter how righteous or even blameless they are supposed to be by men, are "weak" and sinful and hence, logically speaking, are "fallen short of the glory of God." This passage, very concurrent with Paul's previous statements about the sinfulness of humanity, shows us that no matter how "good" a human high priest can be, they still are unacceptable to do what Jesus did, which is serve as our constant high priest as a "blameless and pure," holy one.

If a man such as Zecheriah was perfect, then Jesus would not have been needed, for, as Zecheriah never sinned, he would not have needed to make atonements for his own tresspasses. However, as Paul says, Jesus was needed, for there were "none rightgeouss, no not one."

In addition to that, your supposedly "blameless" Zechariah was made to be mute by the angel Gabriel in the passages following those of your quotation, because he did not believe that his wife was to conceive a son. That act was a sin in itself and seems kind of out of place for a "sinless" man. I believe that Luke refers to Zechariah as "blameless" due to his faith in God, not because of his perfection according to his works.

[Armany]

gynovia said:

LOL, ok i just noticed this, why does nearly everyone have the little thing in their signature, TD-Armany, prez-veep, a better tomorrow?sorry. i'm off the subject.

LOL Because, we're going to win the election!

It's showing that they support the TD-Armany ticket in the campaign.

[gynovia]

oh. i see.

[gynovia]

heres some verses that kindof prove what Armany was saying. Romans 5:12. Wherefore, as by one man (adam) sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passes apon ALL men, for that ALL have sinned.....
Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while WE were yet sinners, Christ died for US.
it is my belief that Zecheriah was not sinless. his disbelief in God proves that.

[heartofgold]

Heartofgold, are you maintaining that there indeed are people who never sin and fall short of the glory of God?

Yes, hence Mary (though I don't know how many other people were sinless, if any).

I agree with you on the part of babies that never see the light of day (though they by their very human nature are sinful), but as to your statement that priestly families (in this case Zechariah, but also making a general statement about all Judaic priests) are "blameless" and pure, I disagree on the basis of logic.

Um, I think you read that wrong. I didn't say priestly families were all sinless, I just used that specific priest as an example. The point is there are certain exceptions to the "all fall short" rule.

If a man such as Zechariah was perfect, then Jesus would not have been needed, for, as Zechariah never sinned, he would not have needed to make atonements for his own tresspasses. However, as Paul says, Jesus was needed, for there were "none rightgeouss, no not one."

I'm going to give my hole analogy again.
Sin is a hole. John Doe see the hole, lean forward, and fall in. God pulls him out. That's grace. Mary walks up to the hole, leans forward, and God stops her from falling in. That's grace too. Without Grace, both John and Mary are stuck in the hole forever.

I believe that Luke refers to Zechariah as "blameless" due to his faith in God, not because of his perfection according to his works.

I think it would be really hard to sin without breaking one of the commandments, or regulations.

say jesus had siblings, say he doesn't...SO WHAT?
anyways, saying again... LETS NOT LOSE SIGHT OF THE BIG PICTURE
jesus lived and died to save us, and whosoever believes in him and puts their faith in him WILL go to heaven.
keep all arguements in perspective, please.

Oh, we'll keep it in perspective, but we have to do something to pass the time, and shouting over the Internet sounded like a fun way to do it.

[falklands]

heartofgold said:

Heartofgold, are you maintaining that there indeed are people who never sin and fall short of the glory of God?

Yes, hence Mary (though I don't know how many other people were sinless, if any).

Um, I think you read that wrong. I didn't say priestly families were all sinless, I just used that specific priest as an example. The point is there are certain exceptions to the "all fall short" rule.

How can you say there are exceptions to the rule? ALL Biblical proof points to the fact that ALL fall short of the glory of God! Isaiah 53:6 says "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." Romans 3:23: "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." Romans 3:10: "There is none righteous, no, not one."

You are arguing that some may be righteous, like Mary. But that is completely contradicting the Bible! The last quote said "no, not one is righteous." Yet you are arguing "Mary is righteous." Yet that is completely incompatible with Scripture.

I'm going to give my hole analogy again.
Sin is a hole. John Doe see the hole, lean forward, and fall in. God pulls him out. That's grace. Mary walks up to the hole, leans forward, and God stops her from falling in. That's grace too. Without Grace, both John and Mary are stuck in the hole forever.

Giving analogies does not prove your point one bit. Please give biblical proof.

I think it would be really hard to sin without breaking one of the commandments, or regulations.

Precisely. It is actually impossible to sin without breaking the Law. That's why Christ came down: to provide a path to the Father, hence "no one comes to the Father except through me."






Yeah, I have returned. But I'm just popping my head in (then popping it back out again). God bless you all!

Falklands