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Post by gynovia on Oct 22, 2005 9:17:47 GMT -5
isn't there a verse that sais- ye shall be known by your fruit? but then the pharisees said and did everything right. they followed the laws, and Jesus was obviously not pleased with them,
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Post by Armany on Oct 22, 2005 10:50:22 GMT -5
isn't there a verse that sais- ye shall be known by your fruit? but then the pharisees said and did everything right. they followed the laws, and Jesus was obviously not pleased with them, You cannot get to Heaven by your "fruit" alone. I believe the verse that you mentioned, Gynovia, is in relation to the fact that if you are true Christians, who do the Father's will, then you will be known by your fruit. Likewise, those who are not of God will be known by their fruit. |
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Post by Triphus (Titanian) on Oct 22, 2005 13:47:54 GMT -5
I very much agree with TD, Catholics are Christian, but as Geberia said, they cannot go to Heaven simply by their good works, but can a "non-catholic" Christian go to Heaven simply by their good works???/ Absolutely NOT!
Catholics do believe in different things, but so do Baptists, Methodists, and Presbyterians.........as long as you believe that Jesus is your Savior and have accepted Him into your heart then you are saved.
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Post by falklands on Oct 22, 2005 14:40:46 GMT -5
I did not say that works got you to heaven - simply that in many cases, works were a demonstration of your faith. The Pharisees did NOT do everything right. They disobeyed the most important commandment: "you shalt love the Lord your God," being hypocritical and arrogant. Everything about them was show, and also they did not give to the needy. Many works they did not perform that the Lord had told them to. But I am getting away from the point here. Yes, only faith can get you to heaven, although don't you think the Lord would be more pleased with you if you did good works also? Many Catholics DO have faith.
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Post by New Titania (TD) on Oct 23, 2005 18:09:17 GMT -5
OK, guys. Those of you who think that Catholics don't have a very good chance of getting to Heaven...please say why. All you've done is say "oh, well, they do good works" (yeah, a sure ticket to hell  ). State what they believe and why you think this will condemn them to d**nation. I myself am studied in the Catholic faith and find no fault with their main philosophies. OF COURSE if they're bad people or don't accept Jesus, they won't make it to Heaven, so don't use that argument either. They have their own traditions (waaaay too formal for me) but so does every demoninations (INCLUDING non-denominational churches.) Jesus is the key to salvation. |
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Post by falklands on Oct 23, 2005 20:55:30 GMT -5
Well said TD. However, we must note that the Catholics (or at least the conservative ones) believe that only they will get to heaven, spanning from a decree by a past Pope that all non-catholics who have had a chance to hear their message are heading to Hell. Interesting how this discussion started about whether they, as a different denomination than ours, are going to Heaven or not when at the same time they are having discussions about whether we are going to Heaven or not!
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Post by Chocolate Bar on Oct 23, 2005 21:20:01 GMT -5
OK, guys. Those of you who think that Catholics don't have a very good chance of getting to Heaven...please say why. All you've done is say "oh, well, they do good works" (yeah, a sure ticket to hell ). State what they believe and why you think this will condemn them to d**nation. I myself am studied in the Catholic faith and find no fault with their main philosophies. OF COURSE if they're bad people or don't accept Jesus, they won't make it to Heaven, so don't use that argument either. They have their own traditions (waaaay too formal for me) but so does every demoninations (INCLUDING non-denominational churches.) Jesus is the key to salvation. Catholics not accepting Jesus is a huge point. Saying that people can't use it really makes no point for this debate. It's unfair. The fact is many Catholics do beileve they can get to Heaven by themselves. Not all but a sizeable number. Also, many times you use the Pope as reference. You say Pope's will go to Heaven. That's not always true. Look at the Pharisees. They were in a situation like the Pope but Jesus condemned them. |
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Post by Triphus (Titanian) on Oct 23, 2005 21:44:59 GMT -5
I think we're kind of straying from the question here. The question was are Catholics Chrsitian? I personally believe that anyone that has accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior is a Christian, but the thing is they may not want to be called a Chrstian because of things "some self-proclaimed" Christians have done. I met a guy at church once, and before he accpeted Christ he was a Muslim, and after he became saved he started calling himself a "Jesus-following Muslim" because he did not want to be associated with some of the bad things self-proclaimed Christians have done.
so in answer to the question ANYONE whatever they call themselves is Christian IF AND ONLY IF they have accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior and have Him living in their heart.
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Post by New Titania (TD) on Oct 23, 2005 23:20:20 GMT -5
Catholics not accepting Jesus is a huge point. Saying that people can't use it really makes no point for this debate. It's unfair. The fact is many Catholics do beileve they can get to Heaven by themselves. It is not unfair. Catholics not accepting Jesus are NOT Christians, thus they won't make it to heaven. The point has been used and taken, but it is not the philosophy of The Vatican to promote non-Jesus entry into Heaven. Because some Catholics think they can do it doesn't mean the whole church thinks so or endorses such a thought. I myself know a couple of protestants who think they can make it up there without Jesus. Should we start calling all protestants and charismatics non-Christians? |
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Post by Chocolate Bar on Oct 23, 2005 23:45:41 GMT -5
Catholics not accepting Jesus is a huge point. Saying that people can't use it really makes no point for this debate. It's unfair. The fact is many Catholics do beileve they can get to Heaven by themselves. It is not unfair. Catholics not accepting Jesus are NOT Christians, thus they won't make it to heaven. The point has been used and taken, but it is not the philosophy of The Vatican to promote non-Jesus entry into Heaven. Because some Catholics think they can do it doesn't mean the whole church thinks so or endorses such a thought. I myself know a couple of protestants who think they can make it up there without Jesus. Should we start calling all protestants and charismatics non-Christians? It's more than some Catholics. I'd go as far to say 15% of Catholics beileve thay can get to Heaven by their good works alone. While most other Denomanitions are in 1 digit percentages. Also, Falkland made an interesting point. I really hope you respond to it. |
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Post by New Titania (TD) on Oct 24, 2005 0:02:09 GMT -5
we must note that the Catholics (or at least the conservative ones) believe that only they will get to heaven, spanning from a decree by a past Pope that all non-catholics who have had a chance to hear their message are heading to Hell. OK, a couple of things... "Their message"...define what their message is, please. From what I've heard, the message of Catholocism is that Jesus is the Savior (*bows* "Hail Mary..." ). Also, what have you heard that makes the Catholic church so utterly distiguishable in their minds from the rest of Christianity that makes them think that they're the only ones to go to Heaven. Meaning, what theological difference makes them "superior" in their minds according to your information? And, Choco, if your statistics are true, (I doubt the large number, but we'll use it for the sake of debating this topic) then it is still a minority in the church that believes such things. A rather large, minority, granted, but 15% is a definite minority. |
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Post by New Titania (TD) on Oct 24, 2005 0:03:18 GMT -5
^^^please excuse my bad grammar above!
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Post by Armany on Oct 24, 2005 16:12:54 GMT -5
"Their message"...define what their message is, please. From what I've heard, the message of Catholocism is that Jesus is the Savior (*bows* "Hail Mary..." ). Catholicism, from my point of view, adds things to their theological views that are not neccessarily Biblical. For example, the Catholic Church endorses and encourages the use of "rosaries" and other prayers to certain Saints in certain situations. For example, my neighbor, an elderly woman, lost her dog and said a prayer to a certain Saint (I don't remember which it was) to intercede on her behalf with God. This, to me, constitutes a deliberate act of putting a deceased human's spirit in the way of God and, in effect, elevating some great Christian person to a position that is entirely un-Biblical and inconsistent with sound Christian teaching. Nowhere in the Bible does God mention us having the ability to pray to a deceased spirit so as to intercede for us before God. In Jesus' Sermon on the Mount, when he is presenting to us the famous "Lord's Prayer" he does not insert a casual "pray to your deceased brothers and sisters and Christ" between the verses about the Father's will being done and the daily giving of sustenance. In fact, I would go as far as to submit to everyone that the Catholic Saint prayer/intercession is in fact a form of spiritism in that living humans are attempting to pray to dead Christian saints. I am not that "up" on Catholic practices or traditions regarding this type of saint intercession, but I am basing my argument on the experiences that I have had with my neighbor, a professed Catholic. Even if a Catholic, or a Protestant, accepts Jesus as Savior, they can still go to Hell. Many Christian denominations adhere to what I would consider ungodly doctrines, and many of those denominations are Protestant ones. |
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Post by falklands on Oct 24, 2005 17:34:06 GMT -5
Yes; I've heard some of my Catholic friends praying to the so-called "saint of finding things", namely St. Anthony.
Gotta go. Will post later.
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Post by Triphus (Titanian) on Oct 24, 2005 17:40:18 GMT -5
For example, my neighbor, an elderly woman, lost her dog and said a prayer to a certain Saint (I don't remember which it was) to intercede on her behalf with God. This, to me, constitutes a deliberate act of putting a deceased human's spirit in the way of God and, in effect, elevating some great Christian person to a position that is entirely un-Biblical and inconsistent with sound Christian teaching. Armany, one of my good friends is Catholic and she said that they pray to saints so that the saints would represent their prayer to God. They still believe in Jesus as their savior, which in itself is enough, but they believe that they should be respectful to God so they present their prayers before a saint that will present it to God. The big thing about Catholics is they want to be extremely respectful to the creator of the universe. |
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Post by Armany on Oct 24, 2005 20:17:04 GMT -5
Armany, one of my good friends is Catholic and she said that they pray to saints so that the saints would represent their prayer to God. They still believe in Jesus as their savior, which in itself is enough, but they believe that they should be respectful to God so they present their prayers before a saint that will present it to God. The big thing about Catholics is they want to be extremely respectful to the creator of the universe. Is this practice Biblical? And, if it's not Biblical, then what is it? That's all I'm saying. |
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Post by Triphus (Titanian) on Oct 24, 2005 20:25:57 GMT -5
I'm not sure that it's biblical, but then again is debating about this biblical?  i think that all they are trying to do is be respectful and any way they can be more respectful they do it. i don't see any harm in that. |
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Post by Armany on Oct 24, 2005 20:36:07 GMT -5
I'm not sure that it's biblical, but then again is debating about this biblical? i think that all they are trying to do is be respectful and any way they can be more respectful they do it. i don't see any harm in that. Think what you will of debating a denomination's religious beliefs. I see no harm in it, as long as we refrain from stereotyping or bashing any particular group of people for what they believe in. I am personally opposed to Catholicism based on the precepts of its theology, but I am not going to say that Catholics are all universally going to Hell. As I have said before, I think that there are many Protestants that are more likely to go to Hell along with Catholics, and people of other religions. I see harm in offering prayers to Saints where God does not command or endorse it. I feel that there are spiritual implications for things that we do in our individual patterns of worship, some of them bad. I believe that a person can be deceived and led astray within their own church through corrupt doctrines. It is my belief that Catholicism has corrupted doctrines that can lead people astray. IMHO, Saint prayer/intercession is one of those. I don't claim to know God's feelings on this matter, therefore it is just my opinion on the subject. |
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Post by falklands on Oct 24, 2005 20:57:34 GMT -5
Well said Armany. Concerning the doctrine that the Catholic church is the "true" one, they believe it is so because of Matt. 16: 18 - "And I say also unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Peter, they say, was the first Pope, so the Catholic church must be Christ's church as such. But this is flawed. I found this site at www.bibletruths.net/Great%20Truths/GT15.htm, which explains how this cannot be so. Many times the Bible refers to God as a "rock". For example, Psalms 18:31 says, "And who is God save the Lord? Or who is a rock save our God?" I have also had discussions with my friend over this. |
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Post by New Titania (TD) on Oct 25, 2005 9:25:03 GMT -5
Ok, so the Catholics say prayers to Saints...I think everyone here would agree on that. But is that a ticket to Hell? I don't really think so.
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Post by falklands on Oct 25, 2005 10:00:35 GMT -5
I agree. I know Catholics who pray to saints yet have accepted Jesus as their saviour and I can tell they are going to heaven.
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Post by Armany on Oct 25, 2005 14:52:11 GMT -5
Ok, so the Catholics say prayers to Saints...I think everyone here would agree on that. But is that a ticket to Hell? I don't really think so. My entire point was to ponder what spiritual implications this act has? If they aren't praying to God, then who is it? That's what I question the most. |
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Post by gynovia on Oct 25, 2005 15:38:10 GMT -5
well they think that they're praying to God, right?
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Post by Armany on Oct 25, 2005 18:42:18 GMT -5
They may think that they do, but IMO they aren't.
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Post by falklands on Oct 25, 2005 19:48:41 GMT -5
They believe they are praying to God, but through the saints. Or, (I'm not quite sure), they know they are praying to saints, even though they hope their prayer ultimately reaches God. But how can that have an effect on salvation?
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). State what they believe and why you think this will condemn them to d**nation. I myself am studied in the Catholic faith and find no fault with their main philosophies. OF COURSE if they're bad people or don't accept Jesus, they won't make it to Heaven, so don't use that argument either. They have their own traditions (waaaay too formal for me) but so does every demoninations (INCLUDING non-denominational churches.)
i think that all they are trying to do is be respectful and any way they can be more respectful they do it. i don't see any harm in that.