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Post by heartofgold on Nov 29, 2005 19:14:05 GMT -5
Luke 1:6. Lets say EVERYONE falls short of the glory of god. What about aborted babies (I'm repeating myself)? What about severely retarded people? Both of those cat orgies would be special exceptions to the "all have sinned"rule (I'm really repeating myself). I think Mary would be another special category. Analogies help people understand my point. Mary did need a Saviour (as said in the bible), and she was saved by the grace of God (as said in the bible). Thank you. So I'm sure you agree that Zechariah was blameless.  |
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Post by falklands on Nov 29, 2005 20:22:24 GMT -5
Luke 1:6. Lets say EVERYONE falls short of the glory of god. What about aborted babies (I'm repeating myself)? What about severely retarded people? Both of those cateorgies would be special exceptions to the "all have sinned" rule (I'm really repeating myself). I think Mary would be another special category. But WHY would Mary be another special category? How is Mary in particular completely holy, blameless, sinless, and righteous? So by saying that "Mary did need a Saviour", you're saying that she was just like everyone else! How is this proving that she is an exception to the "no one is righteous" rule? Precisely. It is actually impossible to sin without breaking the Law. That's why Christ came down: to provide a path to the Father, hence "no one comes to the Father except through me."[/Quote] Thank you. So I'm sure you agree that Zechariah was blameless. [/quote] Sorry about that. I honestly didn't think my statement through enough. I retract it. I'm sorry about the misunderstanding! Okay then... Zechariah did sin. Armany shows the example here very well. Clearly from that story he did sin. I agree with Armany in his final conclusion. The Bible says "no one is righteous." Yet Luke 1:6 says Zachariah was righteous. Now one has to consider in what way he was righteous. An answer compatible with both of these quotes would be that he was fully devoted to God, seeking to please Him, walking with Him and having Faith in Him. The verse "no one is righteous" is the affirmation that no one is without sin. [glow=red,2,300][shadow=red,left,300][/shadow][/glow] |
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Post by heartofgold on Nov 29, 2005 22:51:15 GMT -5
Lets give some other categories. What about the angels? What about people in heaven? All are sinless, but if EVERYONE sinned, then they would have too. Now, for biblical evidence (oh yes, I do have some). Read this article by Patrick Madrid, than come back and we'll see where we are. www.catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9112fea1.aspMary is just like everyone else in the respect that she needed a Saviour, but that's just about where the similar ties end. She was saved, but in a more splendid and glorious way than any of the rest of us. God kept her from falling in the pit, where as we all fell in. Clearly?! It states in Luke 1:6 "Zechariah was blameless". You can't get any more clear than that. Granted, its possible that he did sin in the end (though I'm not the one who says what's a sin and what isn't), but he definitely didn't sin up to that point. |
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Post by Chocolate Bar on Nov 30, 2005 8:52:00 GMT -5
Lets give some other categories. What about the angels? What about people in heaven? All are sinless, but if EVERYONE sinned, then they would have too. Now, for biblical evidence (oh yes, I do have some). Read this article by Patrick Madrid, than come back and we'll see where we are. www.catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9112fea1.aspMary is just like everyone else in the respect that she needed a Saviour, but that's just about where the similar ties end. She was saved, but in a more splendid and glorious way than any of the rest of us. God kept her from falling in the pit, where as we all fell in. Clearly?! It states in Luke 1:6 "Zechariah was blameless". You can't get any more clear than that. Granted, its possible that he did sin in the end (though I'm not the one who says what's a sin and what isn't), but he definitely didn't sin up to that point. Your "Biblical Evidence" was a very weak arguement. I didn't see anything there that even began to change my mind. Also, that whole Angels and people in Heaven thing is an invalid arguement seeing as we are talking about humans. Why did we need Jesus? We already had perfect people. Mary and Zechariah. If they were perfect why did God have to sacrifice his own son? Why couldn't he use them? Saying that Mary and Zechariah are perfect downgrades how important Jesus was and is for us. What's so special about him? He is perfect, But so are other living humans. That doesn't matter then....... See what I'm getting at? |
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Post by gynovia on Nov 30, 2005 11:25:31 GMT -5
Clearly?! It states in Luke 1:6 "Zechariah was blameless". You can't get any more clear than that. Granted, its possible that he did sin in the end (though I'm not the one who says what's a sin and what isn't), but he definitely didn't sin up to that point. [/quote] Heres another verse that seems very clear to me: for ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God..... there is none righteous, no not one. how can the Bible make it any clearer? Mary was a human. Zechariah was a human. humans sin its our sin nature that was passed on from Adam! How can we put them in a separtate catagory? ONLY Jesus Christ is perfect. Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that NOT of yourselves: it is the gift of God: NOT of works, least any man should boast. |
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Post by heartofgold on Nov 30, 2005 12:12:00 GMT -5
OK then, if all you have to do is use a sinless being, why didn't he use an angel? Unless your saying EVERYONE sinned, which would include angels.
Also, I still don't think your getting it. Mary was sinless, but only by the grace of god. She did need a Saviour, she was saved. Jesus didn't need a Saviour to be sinless, so he was the one who saved us all. He couldn't have sent Mary, as without Jesus, she was a sinner.
So, your saying Angels sin, aborted babies sin, severely retarded people sin....
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Post by Chocolate Bar on Nov 30, 2005 12:21:07 GMT -5
OK then, if all you have to do is use a sinless being, why didn't he use an angel? Unless your saying EVERYONE sinned, which would include angels. Also, I still don't think your getting it. Mary was sinless, but only by the grace of god. She did need a Saviour, she was saved. Jesus didn't need a Saviour to be sinless, so he was the one who saved us all. He couldn't have sent Mary, as without Jesus, she was a sinner. So, your saying Angels sin, aborted babies sin, severely retarded people sin.... I have a question. If Mary can be saved without Jesus dying why did Jesus have to die at all? Why couldn't he do the same thing that he did to Mary to everyone else? |
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Post by heartofgold on Nov 30, 2005 13:38:40 GMT -5
Mary COULDN'T have been saved without Jesus dying. Only by Jesus' death on the cross was she saved, just like everyone else.
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Post by Chocolate Bar on Nov 30, 2005 14:03:22 GMT -5
Mary COULDN'T have been saved without Jesus dying. Only by Jesus' death on the cross was she saved, just like everyone else. but I thought Mary was perfect from birth. She was born long before Jesus died so..... |
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Post by falklands on Nov 30, 2005 14:08:11 GMT -5
So you're saying that Mary never did sin, but needed a Saviour all the same. In the last quote you said she was saved by the Cross. Yes, and so are we, and all Christians are made pure and clean before God. There is no proof that she was sinless beforehand! In fact, there is proof against it from the quote "ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." But now after Christ's death there is a way out of sin.
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Post by heartofgold on Nov 30, 2005 15:36:24 GMT -5
Ahhh, but god lives outside of time, so it would be easy for him (don't think about it too long, you get a headache).
You still can't take that verse as literally as you want to. Otherwise you have to say angels sin, aborted babies, yada yada yada.
All of the above are special categories, Mary would be one too, being a pretty special person.
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Post by falklands on Nov 30, 2005 20:14:12 GMT -5
Ahhh, but god lives outside of time, so it would be easy for him (don't think about it too long, you get a headache). So Christ could have come down to earth at the end of the age and end up sanctifying everyone who lived before that age? I don't think so. Mary lives inside time. You still can't take that verse as literally as you want to. Otherwise you have to say angels sin, aborted babies, yada yada yada. All of the above are special categories, Mary would be one too, being a pretty special person.[/quote] Aborted babies and retarded people are a complicated issue, and I don't have time tonight to deal with that. But let me settle the issues of Angels with you right now. Romans 3:9-10 - "for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one." The context is talking about Jews and Gentiles, not Angels! [glow=green,2,300]Falklands[/glow] |
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Post by heartofgold on Dec 1, 2005 0:03:47 GMT -5
Your right. God couldn't do that. And all this time I thought he could do anything, well I guess I'm wrong.  |
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Post by New Titania (TD) on Dec 1, 2005 1:03:22 GMT -5
Well, this is QUITE interesting....
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Post by heartofgold on Dec 1, 2005 1:30:50 GMT -5
The above was sarcasm, in case anyone missed it. |
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Post by New Titania (TD) on Dec 1, 2005 1:36:26 GMT -5
 IT WAS?  ??.... |
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ashbash
Junior Member
if u want to know, that's a wine bottle, top down
Posts: 74
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Post by ashbash on Dec 1, 2005 6:09:06 GMT -5
wow...everyone's just repeating themself AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN
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Post by New Titania (TD) on Dec 1, 2005 13:10:06 GMT -5
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Post by heartofgold on Dec 1, 2005 15:44:45 GMT -5
Actually, from what I've read (since Yahoo isn't exactly the first and best source for catholic news), Limbo was never an official church doctrine. It was one of those, "you can accept it, or reject it, but its not going to make a whole lot of difference in the end" things. The Catholic Church has a lot of those Believe it or not, not all catholic Churches preach exactly the same thing. But I think the catholic church did it right. Instead of splitting up, they just let them go, so long as there not preaching hersey or something. |
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Post by falklands on Dec 1, 2005 17:15:03 GMT -5
We are getting nowhere here. I have more to say, but it won't really make a difference as both of us are so entrenched in our beliefs that no amount of discussion is going to make us change. Not that I'm saying that it's bad. No, sticking to your guns is good. Some of the time ;D
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Post by Armany on Dec 1, 2005 18:47:32 GMT -5
We are getting nowhere here. I have more to say, but it won't really make a difference as both of us are so entrenched in our beliefs that no amount of discussion is going to make us change. Not that I'm saying that it's bad. No, sticking to your guns is good. Some of the time ;D That seems to be pretty accurate. ;D |
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Post by falklands on Dec 1, 2005 18:54:35 GMT -5
That seems to be pretty accurate. ;D ;D By the way, is it just my computer, or is this thread's page seemingly elongated? It's bigger than normal, and now I have to scroll sideways to see the ends of lines. But it only happens in this thread. Is it happening to you as well Armany? |
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Post by Armany on Dec 1, 2005 18:58:55 GMT -5
Sure is. It's due to the fact that some hyperlinks took up more space than a normal thread width is, I think.
BTW, it's nice to have you back, at least for a few posts!
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Post by falklands on Dec 1, 2005 19:07:16 GMT -5
I just might come on here a little more often than I have been (the absence of almost-a-month). I asked my parents, and they were okay about it. But it's not like I'll be frequenting this place every day of the year ;D
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Post by heartofgold on Dec 1, 2005 21:36:51 GMT -5
Your giving up aren't you . That was a joke, by the way. But like I said, yelling at each other over the Internet seemed like a good way to pass the time, but I don't think either of us is going to convert to the other side. But oh well, so long as I'm not going to hell . We're all friends here. Oh, and that has to be a record. Two winks. |
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IT WAS?
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