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Post by gynovia on Jan 18, 2006 11:27:08 GMT -5
hey, we just went through all that
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Post by heartofgold on Jan 18, 2006 11:41:55 GMT -5
Yea, but nobody believed me (or didn't listen, one of the two).  |
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awaz
Junior Member
Posts: 97
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Post by awaz on Jan 18, 2006 11:43:57 GMT -5
Not listening seems to be something everyone is pretty good at.
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Post by heartofgold on Jan 18, 2006 11:45:04 GMT -5
Well I don't know, I use a stool softener now...
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awaz
Junior Member
Posts: 97
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Post by awaz on Jan 18, 2006 11:46:45 GMT -5
stool softener???
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Post by heartofgold on Jan 18, 2006 16:14:17 GMT -5
Never mind. Just ignore my sense of humor (you'll be a lot better off for it).
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Post by Armany on Jan 18, 2006 16:29:31 GMT -5
A stool softener pertains to bowel movements- and I have no clue what you meant by that, Heartofgold! ;D
As for our good friend Harry Potter, whom some of us think is Satan himself on one extreme (yours truly) and Little Red Riding Hood on the other:
True, I'm not a big fan of fantasy. I don't like LoTR or Narnia (*draws suspicious stares from practically everyone here*) for many of the same reasons I don't like Harry Potter. I must admit that I have enjoyed the Star Wars movies when I've seen them, but that doesn't change my view on them, which is that Star Wars (the Force, Jedi/Sith powers, etc.) is occultic. I don't give any credence at all to any claims that Star Wars has Christian undertones. But I digress...
Both of you (meaning Titanian and Heartofgold, but mostly HoG, since Harry Potter is the focus of this debate) seem to differentiate between "good" and "bad" magic. You both say that, in either LoTR or Harry Potter, there are protagonists that, although they use magic, use it in a good way. In other words, they don't practice the ways of the "dark side," if you will, but use supernatural powers (again in the context of things that are un-natural in the the empirical world) to work for the general good. Am I right, or do I read your arguments wrong?
If I've made a correct read on this, then here's my counter-argument: Magic is magic. You have people tapping into un-Godly resources (let's face it, people don't practice alchemy or other magical arts in the name of God). That's that. Whether they're trying to save the world or trying to kill their next-door neighbor, they're using something that is magical. Magic, as I have shown, defines witchcraft, and witchcraft is from the pit of Hell.
In Matthew 24:4, Jesus says, "Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many." Evil can come as a spirit of light, doing what seems to be good while having deadly intentions at heart.
Satan himself was once Lucifer, the most beautiful and radiant angel in all of God's creation. As we all know, he got kicked out for his pride and turned into the ultimate villain of history. However, he was able to deceive Adam and Eve by appearing as a simple snake. Certainly, whenever they were in the process of being deceived, the word "Satan" wasn't written all over the Serpent's forehead. Satan probably seemed reasonable as he enticed them to sin against God; he was evil repackaged to them. At heart, he was spiteful, mean, vicious Devil that wanted them to rot in Hell with him for eternity. However, on the outside, his message seemed like a good idea, even an entertaining idea.
It is the same with Harry Potter. On the outside, you've got "good" magic and "good" wizardry. On the inside, you've got undertones of witchcraft, be they very subtle and inconspicuous. Witchcraft doesn't have to involve supernatural beings and demons; it can be a simple spell cast upon someone, an attempt to control supernatural (again, this doesn't mean demons, it means un-natural means) things.
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Post by heartofgold on Jan 18, 2006 16:52:47 GMT -5
Hm, sorry, wasn't listening.  Well, quite frankly, I can't argue with you. I think there's a difference between witchcraft and magic, you don't. Nothing we can do about that. I am glad you came to a logical conclusion about all this though. You can't say LOTR is fine, but Harry Potter isn't logically. So, you did the logical thing, and said they were all bad. Thank you, and may the force be with you . |
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awaz
Junior Member
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Post by awaz on Jan 18, 2006 17:44:29 GMT -5
Difference or not, Armany, you need to read/watch these things with the realization that they are FICTION.
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Post by gynovia on Jan 18, 2006 17:58:19 GMT -5
Difference or not, Armany, you need to read/watch these things with the realization that they are FICTION. mabey so, but witchcraft is real. |
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Post by falklands on Jan 18, 2006 19:30:12 GMT -5
In the real world, I would not differentiate between witchcraft and magic. But all these different things are Fantasy, and not meant to correspond with the things of this world. You might think Harry Potter does, but really it's based around an imaginary place. "Good" magic in many fantasy novels is meant to be part of the elements of this earth. It is natural in it's own world. Hence Lord of the Rings. The elves spoke "magical" words, but they were part of the nature of this earth. But the "bad" magic is what Armany argues against. I emphasize, however, that in the real world there is no difference between magic and witchcraft (I don't mean magic being the visual illusion-making)
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Post by heartofgold on Jan 18, 2006 23:45:32 GMT -5
Thats true. And thats very important. The magic in Harry Potter is so far removed from our world, thats its really is a fantasy world (like middle earth).
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grerry
New Member
Best PS2 player ever
Posts: 40
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Post by grerry on Jan 19, 2006 13:11:17 GMT -5
Harry Potter is a mind poisining evil which will some day destroy the world!
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Post by heartofgold on Jan 19, 2006 13:32:08 GMT -5
Um, since there isn't any wink there I'm going to assume you're not joking. So, would you be so kind as to tell us all why its going to destroy the world?
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Post by falklands on Jan 19, 2006 17:29:10 GMT -5
Harry Potter is a mind poisining evil which will some day destroy the world! Most people I know who have read it pass it off as complete fantasy and don't think upon it afterwards. |
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Teckor
Full Member
.........what am I supposed to write? Something inspiring?
Posts: 154
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Post by Teckor on Jan 19, 2006 18:08:12 GMT -5
maatshalz, I would like to ask you to calm down first.
I read the first two Harry Poter books, and saw the third movie.
At first it seemed not to bad. But looking at some of it, it is pretty horrible.
Now then, witchcraft is in general bad.
But, as you mentioned, LOTR involves "witchcraft" of a sort. But yut, the LOTR books are not based on the witchcraft, they are based upon the events and the people.
The Narnia series is based more on the people and the events that take place, not any of the mystics.
Harry Potter focuses almost entirely on witchcraft.
So, to end what I have to say, there is a fine line between certain things, such as whether "Catholics" are Christians, or whether Narnia, or LOTR are as bad as Harry Potter, but something to take into consideration is the message presented. Narnia presents a Christian (or seems to) message, same (if not similar) as LOTR. Harry Potter though, I can't see any Christian message there.
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Post by Armany on Jan 19, 2006 18:53:49 GMT -5
Yeah, there's not that much more to argue about. But you have to admit, it was fun while it lasted. ;D
We seem to have our differences on this matter, but both are grounded in sound (meaning consistent) logic. Now, may the force be with you as well. ;D
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Post by falklands on Jan 19, 2006 20:32:08 GMT -5
Woah, that was maatshalz? Blimey, I didn't know he'd come back. Perhaps I should have looked at his RP posts.
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Post by Geberia on Jan 19, 2006 21:06:57 GMT -5
Wait........is he related to zobron? Are they one and the same?!
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awaz
Junior Member
Posts: 97
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Post by awaz on Jan 19, 2006 22:28:24 GMT -5
Who is maatshalz?
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Post by falklands on Jan 19, 2006 22:53:24 GMT -5
A former member of CT who is also TD's cousin and (excuse me if I'm wrong) Siko Michael's brother. He seemed to have left a few months ago. He also was a hardline Democrat/Green Party guy, or so I recall from the "Your Political Stance" thread ;D
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Post by Triphus (Titanian) on Jan 19, 2006 23:14:27 GMT -5
Armany, as much as i'm trying to hold back, I can't. I still can't understand why you won't read Narnia because it has magic in it. I see what you're saying about ur understanding of magic is ungodly, but I highly disagree. One of the BEST lines in The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe is when Aslan (Jesus) dies and resurrects and cracks the stonetable (representing the tearing of the veil in the temple) he says that the Witch forgot about the Deep Magic, that when one was punished who was completely innocent of all sins, then death would work itself backwards. How true that line is. I believe that there is a Deep Magic in reality, I also believe that Witchcraft is Satan taking that Magic and turning it into something bad. I believe God is a spiritual being and that He created the Deep Magic.
Now please understand me when I say this, I'm NOT saying that God is some kind of occultic person, what I am saying is that magic is reality. God created it along with everything else. We reside in a physical world, but we MUST understand that there IS a spiritual world too, and that there is a very narrow path between those two worlds, and they sometime collide. I believe with all my heart that the Deep Magic created by God has been twisted and used with greed by Satan after the Fall, which created Witchcraft.
The reason I see Narnia and LOTR as different from Harry Potter is because Narnia and LOTR are full of Deep Magic. They both tell the story of the world, they both have a world created by "God" and a villain who twists part of that world and creates a "dark side" of the world. If you really wanted to understand the story, you should read the earlier books such as The Magician's Nephew for Narnia, and The Silmarillion for LOTR, these books are word for word the story of Creation. Harry Potter on the other hand does not deal with Deep Magic as a whole, but deals mainly with the "dark side" of the Deep Magic, which is Witchcraft.
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Post by Armany on Jan 20, 2006 10:09:06 GMT -5
Armany, as much as i'm trying to hold back, I can't. I still can't understand why you won't read Narnia because it has magic in it. I see what you're saying about ur understanding of magic is ungodly, but I highly disagree. One of the BEST lines in The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe is when Aslan (Jesus) dies and resurrects and cracks the stonetable (representing the tearing of the veil in the temple) he says that the Witch forgot about the Deep Magic, that when one was punished who was completely innocent of all sins, then death would work itself backwards. How true that line is. I believe that there is a Deep Magic in reality, I also believe that Witchcraft is Satan taking that Magic and turning it into something bad. I believe God is a spiritual being and that He created the Deep Magic. Now please understand me when I say this, I'm NOT saying that God is some kind of occultic person, what I am saying is that magic is reality. God created it along with everything else. We reside in a physical world, but we MUST understand that there IS a spiritual world too, and that there is a very narrow path between those two worlds, and they sometime collide. I believe with all my heart that the Deep Magic created by God has been twisted and used with greed by Satan after the Fall, which created Witchcraft. The reason I see Narnia and LOTR as different from Harry Potter is because Narnia and LOTR are full of Deep Magic. They both tell the story of the world, they both have a world created by "God" and a villain who twists part of that world and creates a "dark side" of the world. If you really wanted to understand the story, you should read the earlier books such as The Magician's Nephew for Narnia, and The Silmarillion for LOTR, these books are word for word the story of Creation. Harry Potter on the other hand does not deal with Deep Magic as a whole, but deals mainly with the "dark side" of the Deep Magic, which is Witchcraft. I kind of figured you'd have at it with me about this again, Titanian. ;D All right, first off, let me say that I do believe in a spiritual world. I believe that God can do miracles. I believe in angels, demons, Heaven, Hell, etc. I believe that people can connect with the spiritual world in a bad way. Once this is done, you have some trouble on your hands. I also believe that magic/witchcraft is real. Whenever I hear Wiccan witches/warlocks say that they can cast spells on people, I believe it. They may not have anything to do with Satan/demonic powers in a direct way (they're not calling demons upon people or whatever), but they're still using supernatural power (power that does not reside in the natural realm) to enact these spells. This, though they deny it, involves spiritual connections. Now, that said, I believe that any type of "magic," which, I have pointed out in a previous post, is the literal definition of witchcraft, is an attempt to control nature or other people. It is a weak attempt at rebellion against God. It's saying, "I don't need God; I can do it my own way with my own power." I believe that there is no differentiating between magic in terms of good and bad. Magic is witchcraft. It's all the same. Therefore, whenever elements of LoTR and Narnia utilize supernatural means of manipulating nature (after all, the word "witch" is in the very title of one of the books), I call a spade a spade and say that it is magic. It is a connection to supernatural forces totally separated from God. I don't buy into any sort of "Deep Magic" that exists, because God already has his spiritual ways of doing things. It doesn't make sense that he would provide humans with a toy called magic so they could manipulate nature and supernatural elements to their advantage, IMHO. I don't read that in the Bible, and I have seen no evidence that can convince me otherwise, so, for me, I'm set on the issue of magic. If Narnia was just an analogy about God and Satan and everything that you've mentioned, I'd be fine with it. I might even read the things for recreation. But to me, when elements of magic are introduced, that constitutes a bit of an excursion into the occult if magic and witchcraft are presented in a good light. JMHO (Just my humble opinion)  |
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Post by heartofgold on Jan 20, 2006 14:40:26 GMT -5
Well first off, I'd just like to say Armany that I respect you more than somebody who just reads this stuff without a second thought. I also respect you for coming to a logical conclusion about all this. Quite frankly, you can't say Peter Pan is good, but Harry Potter isn't logically. So now Triphus and I and everyone else are going to say a bunch of things you don't agree with, so I hope you have fun. Don't fall to the dark side (although I have to admit they have cool music).
I'm going to have to ask you to define witchcraft for me. Peter Pan isn't witchcraft, but Harry Potter is? I don't understand how that works. Peter Pan has all the good guys using magic, and none of the bad guys. UH-OH! Peter Pan shows witchcraft in a good light! Why is it OK?
If Harry Potter deals only with Witchcraft, then so does Narnia. So does LOTR. So does Peter Pan. So why are the above OK?
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Teckor
Full Member
.........what am I supposed to write? Something inspiring?
Posts: 154
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Post by Teckor on Jan 20, 2006 17:06:13 GMT -5
Focuses not on the magic itself but on the story. Unlike Harry Poter (for the most part).
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