Christianity & Catholicism

[heartofgold]

Wait wait wait....I'm confused. I thought you said that purgatory wasn't a church teaching..but now you're talking like it is Explain.

Purgatory itself has always been a church teaching. Praying to the saints to get out of purgatory was never a church teaching.

[ashbash]

define purgatory once and for all so we know what we're talking about here

[Geberia]

and how do you get out then? When God thinks you're clean?

[heartofgold]

define purgatory once and for all so we know what we're talking about here

OK. Purgatory is a place where, basically, you get cleaned up. Its not heaven, or hell, its kinda someplace in between. You get there, get cleaned up, then go the heaven. Like the dirty guy at the door.

and how do you get out then? When God thinks you're clean?

No idea. I haven't been to the afterlife yet so I wouldn't know.

[gynovia]

i though we were 'clean' once we recieved Jesus. explain?

[falklands]

i though we were 'clean' once we recieved Jesus. explain?

That is exactly what I was talking about in the last page. You're absolved from all the sins you have commited and will commit when you give your life to Jesus. Read my comments on the other page for a full description.

and how do you get out then? When God thinks you're clean?



No idea. I haven't been to the afterlife yet so I wouldn't know.

Seems like the Bible is so extremely vague about it that it doesn't tell you the details; it can just be "interpreted" to make an implication of it's existence...

[falklands]

heartofgold said:

The simple reason that God chose her to be the mother of Christ does not make her better in any way

Alternate scenario:
The Archangel Gabriel holds out the hat. God pulls a name out and reads, "Jane Doe. Jane Doe, Jane Doe!!" He says in a panicked voice, "Oh No!! Jesus' mother smokes, drinks, swears, and lives in New York!! She's supposed to live in Bethlehem!! What a disaster!!!

Mary wasn't picked out of a hat.

I didn't say she was! I said she was chosen! Please don't make my words seem something other than what they were intended to be. I reiterate my point: the fact that God chose her does not make her better in any way.

Do you have prayer requests in your church? If so, do you think they take the glory away from God? I don't think asking Mary to pray for us takes the glory away from God any more than prayer requests.

I said praise was given to Mary. In a place which was suppose to be FULLY dedicated to God. Prayer requests aren't praise. And "asking Mary to pray for us" is a whole other issue anyways.

[Chocolate Bar]

heartofgold said:

You say I need biblical evidence, so here I go.

Matthew 12: 32
"Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."

This would imply that there is a purgatory.

1 Cor. 3: 14-15
"If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."

Now, this loss, this penalty, can't refer to hell, since no one is saved there. It also can't refer to heaven, since there is no suffering (fire) in heaven. Purgatory alone explains this passage.

The simple reason that God chose her to be the mother of Christ does not make her better in any way

Alternate scenario:
The Archangel Gabriel holds out the hat. God pulls a name out and reads, "Jane Doe. Jane Doe, Jane Doe!!" He says in a panicked voice, "Oh No!! Jesus' mother smokes, drinks, swears, and lives in New York!! She's supposed to live in Bethlehem!! What a disaster!!!

Mary wasn't picked out of a hat.


Do you have prayer requests in your church? If so, do you think they take the glory away from God? I don't think asking Mary to pray for us takes the glory away from God any more than prayer requests.

I think that Catholicism as a whole elevates Mary to a position unacceptable for a mere human. I know you'll come back with something about Mary's supposed sinlessness by God's grace, heartofgold, but I don't buy it. Catholics use the word "hail" in reference to Mary. "Hail" isn't something that I say to any human being, dead or alive, righteous or sinful.

Your losing my vote Armany... (no, I have that flag for a reason).

Luke 1:28
"And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women."

Its good enough for Gabriel, its good enough for me.

ok, your first verse, I'm not sure how that proves Purgatory. Please explain.

We all are sinners, agreed? Therefore that verse could be talking about that we all (before accepting Jesus) have a one way ticket to Hell. We could compare this to falling in a pit of fire and (we then accept Jesus) then someone (Jesus) pulls us out therefore we are saved and "escape from the flames".


Falklands never once suggested she was randomnely picked. Please stop twisting his words to make his points sound ridiclous. If we were in a debate (with a judge) what you are doing would be considered rude.

Hail, could have been used as a greeting from Gabriel to Mary not a praise.

[steelsheen]

In the Biblical era, 'Hail' was the equivalent of the English 'hello'- more properly 'greetings'.

[heartofgold]

ok, your first verse, I'm not sure how that proves Purgatory. Please explain.

but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."

How can you be forgiven in the age to come if you go straight to Heaven or Hell?

We all are sinners, agreed? Therefore that verse could be talking about that we all (before accepting Jesus) have a one way ticket to Hell. We could compare this to falling in a pit of fire and (we then accept Jesus) then someone (Jesus) pulls us out therefore we are saved and "escape from the flames".

"If it is burned up, he will SUFFER LOSS" How can you suffer loss if you're accepting Jesus?

Falklands never once suggested she was randomnely picked. Please stop twisting his words to make his points sound ridiclous. If we were in a debate (with a judge) what you are doing would be considered rude.

You can't have it both ways. Either she was randomly picked, and is therefore no more special than anyone else, or God chose her, in which case she must be special.

In the Biblical era, 'Hail' was the equivalent of the English 'hello'- more properly 'greetings'.

Than everyone should be just fine with saying, "Hail Mary."

[Chocolate Bar]

heartofgold said:

ok, your first verse, I'm not sure how that proves Purgatory. Please explain.

but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."

How can you be forgiven in the age to come if you go straight to Heaven or Hell?



"If it is burned up, he will SUFFER LOSS" How can you suffer loss if you're accepting Jesus?



You can't have it both ways. Either she was randomly picked, and is therefore no more special than anyone else, or God chose her, in which case she must be special.

In the Biblical era, 'Hail' was the equivalent of the English 'hello'- more properly 'greetings'.

Than everyone should be just fine with saying, "Hail Mary."

"or in the age to come" that could mean after the Rapture, and during "he Great Tribulation"

Nothing God does is randomn. Long before he created the Earth he knew MAry would bear Jesus but how is she special? God also ordained Davis and Soloman to be kings but are they somehow better than the rest of humanity?

Your starting to pull on straws now. When Catholics say "Hail Mary" they are not greeting her.

[heartofgold]

"or in the age to come" that could mean after the Rapture, and during "he Great Tribulation"

Well, I don't believe in the rapture.

Nothing God does is randomn. Long before he created the Earth he knew MAry would bear Jesus but how is she special? God also ordained Davis and Soloman to be kings but are they somehow better than the rest of humanity?

You still can't have it both ways. You can't pretend David and Solomon did nothing for society and weren't special at all. You can't pretend the Mother of God did nothing for society and wasn't special at all.

Your starting to pull on straws now. When Catholics say "Hail Mary" they are not greeting her.

OK, then we're not greeting her (I never said we were). In that case, Gabriel wasn't greeting her either. It's good enough for Gabriel, it's good enough for me.

[New Titania (TD)]

The Catholic proof for pergatory (sp?) is found in the Old Testament Apocrypha, correct?

[heartofgold]

The Catholic proof for pergatory (sp?) is found in the Old Testament Apocrypha, correct?

There's some in the Apocrypha, but there is also a lot in the bible pointing towards purgatory.

[Chocolate Bar]

heartofgold said:

"or in the age to come" that could mean after the Rapture, and during "he Great Tribulation"

Well, I don't believe in the rapture.



You still can't have it both ways. You can't pretend David and Solomon did nothing for society and weren't special at all. You can't pretend the Mother of God did nothing for society and wasn't special at all.

Your starting to pull on straws now. When Catholics say "Hail Mary" they are not greeting her.

OK, then we're not greeting her (I never said we were). In that case, Gabriel wasn't greeting her either. It's good enough for Gabriel, it's good enough for me.

we won't get into that one, it's a whole other thread. ;D

David and Soloman did things for society but enough for people to start praying to them? Mary bore Jesus, that's it. Sure, she was a Godly woman but why is she better than everyone else? God had to fulfill the prophecy that Jesus would come from the line of David. Mary was chosen.

How do you know he wasn't greeting her?

[falklands]

heartofgold said:

"or in the age to come" that could mean after the Rapture, and during "he Great Tribulation"

Well, I don't believe in the rapture.

Read TD's sermon. Also, Revelation speaks of a period of a thousand years after which the Lord will judge the nations on a "great white throne." That could be classified as a different age.

You still can't have it both ways. You can't pretend David and Solomon did nothing for society and weren't special at all. You can't pretend the Mother of God did nothing for society and wasn't special at all.

The only thing special about Mary is that she was a godly woman. God can choose someone and still they aren't more special than anyone else in his eyes. God works through all of us in different ways, and all those different things we do to further the kingdom of God on this earth are not "inferior" to what Mary did (bearing a baby who was Christ).

Also, about Purgatory, it is quite apparent that the verses you quoted are liable to different interpretations. Therefore I would interpret these verses in light of the context of the Bible. If the rest of the Bible implies that forgiveness for all sins is given in one's first redemption, I would assume that Purgatory is not necessary and therefore would not interpret verses that could be pointed towards a belief of Purgatory in that light, but rather in a light that is consistent with the context. I will requote my post on the other page to demonstrate:

Look at the Romans 6 I quoted: "For a dead person has been absolved from sin." Hence "we who died to sin" are now absolved from all sin. "For sin is not to have any power over you, since you are not under the law but under grace." How can that be any clearer? Sin has NO power over those who accept Christ Jesus. We, dead to sin, have been ABSOLVED from ALL sin. It does not mention ANYTHING about purgatory, or the need to cleanse oneself multiple times for the sins one commits daily. Jesus Christ's death covered ALL your sins at ONE time. Can I be any clearer? (I'm not actually angry)

But I am not saying at all that repentance for my daily sins is bad. No, it is good. However, when I gave my life to Jesus, he absolved all the sins I had committed and would commit. You said yourself that Jesus is outside of time. It would follow, then, that he could die for my future sins, hence absolving them.

[heartofgold]

Read TD's sermon. Also, Revelation speaks of a period of a thousand years after which the Lord will judge the nations on a "great white throne." That could be classified as a different age.

Sorry, good friend of TD, still don't believe in the rapture.

God can choose someone and still they aren't more special than anyone else in his eyes.

But they are special in our eyes.

God works through all of us in different ways, and all those different things we do to further the kingdom of God on this earth are not "inferior" to what Mary did (bearing a baby who was Christ).

Being the Mother of God is a big deal. Its one thing to evangelize the guy next door (which I'm sure Mary dd), its another thing to give birth to God.

Also, about Purgatory, it is quite apparent that the verses you quoted are liable to different interpretations. Therefore I would interpret these verses in light of the context of the Bible. If the rest of the Bible implies that forgiveness for all sins is given in one's first redemption, I would assume that Purgatory is not necessary and therefore would not interpret verses that could be pointed towards a belief of Purgatory in that light, but rather in a light that is consistent with the context. I will requote my post on the other page to demonstrate:


Quote:Look at the Romans 6 I quoted: "For a dead person has been absolved from sin." Hence "we who died to sin" are now absolved from all sin. "For sin is not to have any power over you, since you are not under the law but under grace." How can that be any clearer? Sin has NO power over those who accept Christ Jesus. We, dead to sin, have been ABSOLVED from ALL sin. It does not mention ANYTHING about purgatory, or the need to cleanse oneself multiple times for the sins one commits daily. Jesus Christ's death covered ALL your sins at ONE time. Can I be any clearer? (I'm not actually angry)

But I am not saying at all that repentance for my daily sins is bad. No, it is good. However, when I gave my life to Jesus, he absolved all the sins I had committed and would commit. You said yourself that Jesus is outside of time. It would follow, then, that he could die for my future sins, hence absolving them.

If purgatory is not necessary, then neither is repentance. If all your sins are forgiven when you commit them, its no big deal.

[Chocolate Bar]

heartofgold said:

Read TD's sermon. Also, Revelation speaks of a period of a thousand years after which the Lord will judge the nations on a "great white throne." That could be classified as a different age.

Sorry, good friend of TD, still don't believe in the rapture.



But they are special in our eyes.



Being the Mother of God is a big deal. Its one thing to evangelize the guy next door (which I'm sure Mary dd), its another thing to give birth to God.

Also, about Purgatory, it is quite apparent that the verses you quoted are liable to different interpretations. Therefore I would interpret these verses in light of the context of the Bible. If the rest of the Bible implies that forgiveness for all sins is given in one's first redemption, I would assume that Purgatory is not necessary and therefore would not interpret verses that could be pointed towards a belief of Purgatory in that light, but rather in a light that is consistent with the context. I will requote my post on the other page to demonstrate:


Quote:Look at the Romans 6 I quoted: "For a dead person has been absolved from sin." Hence "we who died to sin" are now absolved from all sin. "For sin is not to have any power over you, since you are not under the law but under grace." How can that be any clearer? Sin has NO power over those who accept Christ Jesus. We, dead to sin, have been ABSOLVED from ALL sin. It does not mention ANYTHING about purgatory, or the need to cleanse oneself multiple times for the sins one commits daily. Jesus Christ's death covered ALL your sins at ONE time. Can I be any clearer? (I'm not actually angry)

But I am not saying at all that repentance for my daily sins is bad. No, it is good. However, when I gave my life to Jesus, he absolved all the sins I had committed and would commit. You said yourself that Jesus is outside of time. It would follow, then, that he could die for my future sins, hence absolving them.

If purgatory is not necessary, then neither is repentance. If all your sins are forgiven when you commit them, its no big deal.

why not?

so what if she was the Mother of God. We have all agreed she was a Godly Women but why would God need to make her perfect?

I for one do not believe your sins are washed away when you commit them. while your past sins are when you accept Jesus sins after you are saved I think you should ask forgivness for.

[heartofgold]

Even repentance isn't always good enough. For instance, David sinned, repented, but God still took the life of his son. Sin stays, we need something it the afterlife to get it off.

Christ also reiterates purgatory with Matt. 5:25-26
25"Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

It can also be mentioned that Christian woman still experience birth pains (Gen. 3:16) even though Christ "paid the price".

so what if she was the Mother of God

What?! This is a big deal!! Not just anyone can be Mother of God.

We have all agreed she was a Godly Women but why would God need to make her perfect?

Because she was the tabernacle for the Son of God. It had to be kept clean.

[Chocolate Bar]

heartofgold said:

Even repentance isn't always good enough. For instance, David sinned, repented, but God still took the life of his son. Sin stays, we need something it the afterlife to get it off.

Christ also reiterates purgatory with Matt. 5:25-26
25"Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

It can also be mentioned that Christian woman still experience birth pains (Gen. 3:16) even though Christ "paid the price".

so what if she was the Mother of God

What?! This is a big deal!! Not just anyone can be Mother of God.

We have all agreed she was a Godly Women but why would God need to make her perfect?

Because she was the tabernacle for the Son of God. It had to be kept clean.

Sin does not stay. If you repent God "forgets" your sin but still sometimes, like in David's case, you need to be punished.

also, I would appriecate if you wouldn't take one sentence out of one of my statements and then debate that one sentence. "so what if she was the Mother of God" sounds wrong if it is not paired with the statemnet that goes along with it.

ummmm........ how does that verse have anything to do with purgatory?

I'm not sure I would call her the tabernacle for the Son of God.

[heartofgold]

Jesus welcomes anyone who comes to him by faith, but he welcomes us in order to transform us (Rom 12:2). Our relationship with Jesus is a long, cooperative struggle in which he helps us to fulfill the promise of holiness. This process is described by Peter (1 Pet. 1: 3-7). If this process is not complete when we die (and for most of us it isn't), then we complete it in purgatory.

I'm not sure I would call her the tabernacle for the Son of God.

The tabernacle back in Jewish times was where they kept their most holy objects. A tabernacle is a place where holy objects are kept. I don't know about you, but I can't think of anything more holy than Christ.

[New Titania (TD)]

I am a good friend of TD's

I've failed as a friend! Read the sermon anyway, it describes the dispensationalist (sp?) point of view. If I were to write it again, I would change a few things, but it's basically what I believe.

BTW, heartofgold has heard plenty of my real-life sermons at choir camp, lol, he says I'm Billy Graham re-incarnate (which is freaky because Billy Graham isn't even dead yet...)

[heartofgold]

Acutally I did read it, and got the basic point.

BTW, heartofgold has heard plenty of my real-life sermons at choir camp, lol, he says I'm Billy Graham re-incarnate (which is freaky because Billy Graham isn't even dead yet...)

Biblethumpers... (hey, I'm catholic).

[falklands]

heartofgold said:

Read TD's sermon. Also, Revelation speaks of a period of a thousand years after which the Lord will judge the nations on a "great white throne." That could be classified as a different age.

Sorry, good friend of TD, still don't believe in the rapture.

It was not the rapture I was speaking of.

If purgatory is not necessary, then neither is repentance. If all your sins are forgiven when you commit them, its no big deal.

Even repentance isn't always good enough. For instance, David sinned, repented, but God still took the life of his son. Sin stays, we need something it the afterlife to get it off.

Romans 8:1: "There is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." You are still ignoring Romans 6: "For a dead person has been absolved from sin." Does not that alone imply the nonexistence of purgatory? And it also says we are dead to sin! And therefore freed from all guilt!

Christ also reiterates purgatory with Matt. 5:25-26
25"Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

It can also be mentioned that Christian woman still experience birth pains (Gen. 3:16) even though Christ "paid the price".

Does not these two quotes together contradict yourself? You say that purgatory is implied by the first quote, hence "you will not get out until you have paid the last penny", yet in the second quote "Christ paid the price"!

[falklands]

Lol heartofgold, you're losing karma points ;D It wasn't me, really! ;D