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Post by heartofgold on Dec 12, 2005 14:12:04 GMT -5
Then what are you speaking of? My view of the end of the world is, Jesus comes down, we go up. That simple.
Um, what verse in Romans 6? I can't find what your talking about.
"paid the price" was in quotes. If Christ had paid the full price your talking about, we would be forgiven as soon as we commit our sins. Instead, when we accept him, we go through a long cleansing process trying to free ourselves from sin. If its not complete when we die, there is purgatory, so nothing unclean will enter heaven.
Yea, whoever is dropping me a Karma point a day needs to stop. Its annoying.
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Post by New Titania (TD) on Dec 12, 2005 14:54:10 GMT -5
There's so much more to the end of the world than that. I believe there's more than "Jesus comes down" in the book of revelation.
OK, here's an interesting argument that I've heard used against Catholics (and it has some validity.)
The Catholics view the Pope as someone who can forgive their sins. Only God can do that. The Pope will go to hell because he leads people to believe that he can forgive sins. What happened to the king in the Bible who led the people to think he could do that? He was eaten by worms.
The Catholics worship Mary. Sure, they claim they don't, but you give Mary too much reverance. Saying that Mary is sinless (as only Jesus is) is putting her on the same level as the Christ himself. She was blessed among women, but not sinless.
Believing the Pope can forgive sins and worshipping Mary is a ticket to hell.
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There's the argument.
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Post by heartofgold on Dec 12, 2005 15:29:23 GMT -5
Boy, you and Armany are really cutting it close...
No catholic believes the Pope can forgive sins.
If just being sinless is enough to make someone worship you, why don't you worship angels?
You are 100% right.
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Teckor
Full Member
.........what am I supposed to write? Something inspiring?
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Post by Teckor on Dec 12, 2005 15:49:30 GMT -5
but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." How can you be forgiven in the age to come if you go straight to Heaven or Hell? My two cents. A possible explaination is that he is talking about rejecting salvaltion since the Holy Ghost is said to "enter" us when we get saved, and that if u reject salvation then it doesn't matter whether it's now or a hundred years from now that you'll still be d**ned. |
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Teckor
Full Member
.........what am I supposed to write? Something inspiring?
Posts: 154
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Post by Teckor on Dec 12, 2005 15:55:58 GMT -5
Boy, you and Armany are really cutting it close... No catholic believes the Pope can forgive sins. If just being sinless is enough to make someone worship you, why don't you worship angels? You are 100% right. Tell me then, why do Catholics have Popes? Why does the Pope have the power to abolish or bring back things such as paying to get out of purgatory? Why do the Catholics have masses for their departed that are supposedly in purgatory(as before, I am 99% sure they do)? Why do the Catholics take Christ's words of the bread and wine literally "turning" into his bread and wine? Or why do they put such significance into it at least? Plus, what the heck is the point of confession to a priest anyways? And about worshiping the angels, Armany never said anything about being "just" sinless to be worthy of praise (not to mention the fact that power has something to do with all this, ie: God has more power than all the angels combined). |
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Teckor
Full Member
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Post by Teckor on Dec 12, 2005 16:00:46 GMT -5
Then what are you speaking of? My view of the end of the world is, Jesus comes down, we go up. That simple. Um, what verse in Romans 6? I can't find what your talking about. "paid the price" was in quotes. If Christ had paid the full price your talking about, we would be forgiven as soon as we commit our sins. Instead, when we accept him, we go through a long cleansing process trying to free ourselves from sin. If its not complete when we die, there is purgatory, so nothing unclean will enter heaven. Yea, whoever is dropping me a Karma point a day needs to stop. Its annoying. We don't go through a cleansing process. We confess that we are sinners, that we deserve death and Hell, that we believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that He is the only way to Heaven. There is not "cleansing process". Jesus's blood cleanses us. Didn't Jesus say in Matthew (and probably in the other gospels) at the Final Banquet, "This is my blood which shall be shed for the remission of sins." There is no "cleansing process". |
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Post by gynovia on Dec 12, 2005 17:09:21 GMT -5
oh, and lets not bring angels into this, lets not compare mary w/ angels. angels are a totally different debate.
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Post by Armany on Dec 12, 2005 18:23:04 GMT -5
Your losing my vote Armany...  (no, I have that flag for a reason). LOL I hope not! I assume you're joking. BTW, I've given you a karma point. I really never paid attention to those stupid things, but when you mentioned someone smiteing you, I felt some pity.  |
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Post by Geberia on Dec 12, 2005 18:34:20 GMT -5
Yes, i think it is time to get out of this debate, seeing as I am busy with other stuff. I thankyou all for giving your honest opinions, especially heartofgold, I've learned alot about Catholicism, LOL. It dosn't seem like anyone will be changing their view soon, including me, so adios!
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Post by heartofgold on Dec 12, 2005 19:43:50 GMT -5
Because you have to have authority. Otherwise, look what happens. You and, oh say, Armany, have little in common with your faith. Oh sure, Christ came down, took away all sin, and all that, but what about 24 hour days? What about baptism? And on and on. The Catholic church has authority over all these to settle all dispute. Sorry, your 99% wrong. There aren't whole masses devoted to the dead, there is some of what your talking about, but not in a regular mass. Because its a big, big, deal. It has been a big, big, deal since Jesus said to his disciples, "take eat, this is my body". For 2000 years the Eucharist has been a big, big, deal. Confession is a wonderful tradition that has been going on for 2000 years. Confession is extremely good for the soul, and should be done often. Well, technically, TD said that, but thats not the point. Your right. So we are not worshiping Mary when we say she is sinless. So, as soon as you accept Christ, your free from sin, right? Then, when you sin again, uh oh. You were supposed to be free from all that. You messed up. I don't think so. To get entirely free from sin is a battle that will go on for the rest of our lives. Ha ha, you've bribed me back in. Actually, I just didn't want to have -89 Karma come COL election day. |
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Post by New Titania (TD) on Dec 13, 2005 0:56:28 GMT -5
I personally am not even sure that the angels are sinless... but THAT is another thread (one on which nobody would know what in the world they're talking about.)
Oh yeah, that's just peachy. EvangelicalA happens to believe in the Young Earth, EvangelicalB believes in the Old Earth, and because of this they've got little in common? These are all theological differences that can be quabbled over and debated, but we actually have Christ as the head of our church, not the pope.
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Post by heartofgold on Dec 13, 2005 1:06:07 GMT -5
Please, please don't get that thread started.
But there are a few issues that aren't so technical. Take baptism for instance. I for one believe it is extremely important and you should get it if you can. St. Augustine, to name an example, believed that unbaptized babies went to hell (the church doesn't teach that). That's actually where baptism as a baby came from, all the parents who were afraid their kid would go to hell if he was hit by a car (chariot?) the next day.
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Post by New Titania (TD) on Dec 13, 2005 1:24:19 GMT -5
Baptism IS extremely important, but I don't believe it's absolutely necessary to go to heaven. It is, however, symbolic of your commitment to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I don't think that there are many on "my side" who disagree with me on this one. Let me reiterate; Christ is the head of His church, not the Pope.
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Post by heartofgold on Dec 13, 2005 10:35:46 GMT -5
Believe me, there are a lot of people out there who would disagree with you.
Christ, (or now the Holy Spirit, though I'm not entirely sure how all that works) is the head of the church, but I haven't seen him very active in day-to-day affairs. Its kinda like when Christ was supposed to run Rome back in Constantine's time (I'm not sure if thats how it actually worked, but bear with me). You still needed Constantine. Otherwise, you run into problems.
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Post by gynovia on Dec 13, 2005 10:41:06 GMT -5
why don't you see Christ active in day-to-day affairs?Is Constantine more important than Christ or is the Pope more important than Christ? i guess i don't understand what you mean can you explain that? |
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Post by gynovia on Dec 13, 2005 10:45:45 GMT -5
ok, i guess, what i mean is, evey morning i see God working or 'active'. every day i wake up and see his creation. every breath i take is from Christ. its not from the Pope or Constantine - no offence, but they're just human.
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Post by heartofgold on Dec 13, 2005 10:58:34 GMT -5
I see Christ extremely active in day-to-day affairs, through the Pope. I do not see him mysteriously moving components around so everything works out. God works through the Pope. I'm sure this pope anyway, (and believe me there have been some bad ones over the years), is following whatever instructions he has from God. At least we know now he's supposed to be pope (last time they picked a pope who wasn't supposed to be there, he died in 30 days).
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Post by falklands on Dec 13, 2005 11:52:55 GMT -5
Then what are you speaking of? My view of the end of the world is, Jesus comes down, we go up. That simple. Then you completely ignore the book of Revelation. The age I was speaking of was in Revelation 20, where it speaks of Christ reigning on Earth for a thousand years after much has happened, then the Lord judging everyone from a great white throne. Romans 6:7. Do you have a response? You reject the scripture that says the Lord makes us "white as snow". You are rejecting the fact the Christ paid the FULL price! He was the Perfect Sacrifice! He died for ALL our sins! How could his DEATH on the cross be anything BUT the supreme sacrifice??? And you said we go through a process "trying to free ourselves from sin". We CANNOT free ourselves from sin! (again, I'm not actually angry) With these things you're saying, I think I might just drop you one anyway... ;D |
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Post by falklands on Dec 13, 2005 11:56:32 GMT -5
But there are a few issues that aren't so technical. Take baptism for instance. I for one believe it is extremely important and you should get it if you can. St. Augustine, to name an example, believed that unbaptized babies went to hell (the church doesn't teach that). That's actually where baptism as a baby came from, all the parents who were afraid their kid would go to hell if he was hit by a car (chariot?) the next day. So what is your actual position on infant baptism? |
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Post by falklands on Dec 13, 2005 12:23:17 GMT -5
I see Christ extremely active in day-to-day affairs, through the Pope. I do not see him mysteriously moving components around so everything works out. God works through the Pope. And God works through everyone else who serves him. |
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Post by heartofgold on Dec 13, 2005 12:45:38 GMT -5
True, but if that someone has no authority, nobody will follow him. He'll just go off and start his own church. Thats why you have to authority in the church, so you can hold it together.
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Post by falklands on Dec 13, 2005 12:50:26 GMT -5
True, but if that someone has no authority, nobody will follow him. He'll just go off and start his own church. Thats why you have to authority in the church, so you can hold it together. Of course, that's fine, considering Paul's words about elders in the church. But my point was that God works through everyone who serves him, albeit in different ways. |
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Post by heartofgold on Dec 13, 2005 17:20:23 GMT -5
The book of Revelation is open to many different interpretations. For instance, in that chapter, it never states the Christ will come down to earth, it just says he will reign. One way of interpreting that is we are living in it right now. Christ is reigning in heaven and on earth through his Church.
It doesn't say when they are freed from sin does it? For all we know its a reference to purgatory, when we are freed from sin after we die.
Though Christ died paid the infinte price 2000 years ago, the sanctification process still goes on. According to the bible, sanctification is a thing of the past (1 Cor. 6:11), present ( Thess. 4:3), and future (1 Thess. 5:23) in Christian life. This process will involve suffering (Heb. 12:1–12), but that does not take away anything from Christ's sacrifice. In fact, there is only one mention in the bible of something "lacking in Christ’s afflictions," and that is the suffering of his Church (Col. 1:24).
Baptism is extremly important, and there isn't really any reason not to get baptized as an infant. I don't know, as I am not God, what happens to unbaptized babies. Who knows? Maybe they do go to Limbo.
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Post by falklands on Dec 13, 2005 20:56:08 GMT -5
The book of Revelation is open to many different interpretations. For instance, in that chapter, it never states the Christ will come down to earth, it just says he will reign. One way of interpreting that is we are living in it right now. Christ is reigning in heaven and on earth through his Church. I wouldn't try and apply all that occurs in the book of Revelation to this present age. The Bible is very specific about it; It would not say a "thousand years" unless it meant a "thousand years". Besides, Revelation 20 comes after a host of other happenings pertaining to the end of the world. Are you really going to ignore that and flip times around? Ah, but the rest of the chapter talks about us as being dead to sin. verse 7, ("For the dead have been absolved from sin") being in that context, it is obvious to me that the Bible is saying we are absolved from sin, now that we have "died with Christ" and are "dead to sin". I think I'll just give the chapter again: These verses plainly state that we have been freed from sin. You have been denying this. Explain? There was a post I made way back two pages ago. It pertains to my other posts, but I didn't think you gave a satisfactory answer to it. This has to do with your comments above. "But God cleans you up in your first life when you get saved. He says 'for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.' (Jeremiah 31:14) It would not make sense to be cleaned after death and yet before heaven if God has already made you 'white as snow'." I don't believe getting baptized as an infant has anything to do with salvation. C'mon, baptism is a symbolic act of commitment to Christ. Infants don't know any better. They have not made the decision to follow Christ nor have the mental capacity to do so. Why, therefore, would an act symbolic of an inner decision have any effect when that decision is not effected? |
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Post by heartofgold on Dec 13, 2005 22:45:10 GMT -5
The bible says days when it could've meant years during creation, it could be doing so here. I did not deny that we have been freed from sin, I am saying there is still a sanctification process. That sanctification process usually isn't over when we die, thus, the need for Purgatory. Jeremiah 31:14 (New International Version) 14 I will satisfy the priests with abundance, and my people will be filled with my bounty," declares the LORD.  Um, please explain. Ah, but Catholics view baptism as more than just "symbolic of an inner decision". For Catholics is is the remission of sins, which would be Original Sin for infants as they cannot sin, something you want to get rid of. Peter explained what happens at baptism in Acts 2:38, but he did not limit it to adults. We also read "Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name" (Acts 22:16). There is also a connection between baptism and salvation, a connection explicitly stated in 1 Peter 3:21 |
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(no, I have that flag for a reason).
Um, please explain.