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Post by New Titania (TD) on Dec 21, 2005 1:21:25 GMT -5
OK, for James 2:24....
I believe that this verse is NOT stating that good works are necessary, but rather, that bad works are d**ning. I believe this means that if I have faith alone and do bad things, then I'm doomed.
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Post by heartofgold on Dec 21, 2005 2:09:23 GMT -5
OK, for James 2:24.... I believe that this verse is NOT stating that good works are necessary, but rather, that bad works are d**ning. I believe this means that if I have faith alone and do bad things, then I'm doomed. James 2:14-18 14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. As you can see Paul is not just speaking of bad works. |
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Teckor
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Post by Teckor on Dec 21, 2005 16:14:08 GMT -5
James 2:24 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. But you have to say there's a sanctification process, we're all still sinning, we're all still sinners. We're all going to be sinners when we die (most of us anyway), and nothing unclean can enter heaven. Thus, purgatory. Something to note, in 23, it talks about Abraham being justified by works but it was the fact that he put his "trust" or faith in that God knew what he was doing. It's easier to say the way, then to walk it. 26 For as the the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. Faith is the requirement, but in accepting Jesus's gift, we dont just say "I believe", we truly do. Matthew 26:28 "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for the remission of sins." Remission of sins. Also could be known as forgiveness of sins, pardon of sins, and release from sin. As in, "My sins are gone", "I am no longer held accountable to them", "The ransom has been paid". Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Sin brings death both spiritually and physically. But Christ paid the price for our sins so that we could live spiritually forever with him. Yes, we all still sin, but, we are not held by them. We are not d**ned because of them. They were paid the price of by Jesus Christ, the ultimate sacrifice. As before, you have the right to believe whatever you want. But personally, I disagree with the idea that faith only gets you "half way", or that we have to sit in a place better than Hell but worse than Heaven for a couple of thousand of years despite the fact that Jesus's blood cleanses us of our sins. But still, you believe what you want. |
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Post by heartofgold on Dec 21, 2005 16:23:03 GMT -5
I am in no way saying Faith is unnecessary for salvation. I am saying that faith and works work together for salvation.
You can slip out of God's grace if you reject him, or, in this case, just use him. Saying, "since I believe and have accepted him, I can sin all I want and it won't matter," doesn't work. We are still sinning, and are still going through a sanctification process to free ourselves completely from sin. That process isn't over when we die. Thus, purgatory.
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Post by falklands on Dec 21, 2005 17:50:41 GMT -5
It seems like we are having two discussions about the same thing - Faith and Works. Please relegate all discussion about this subject to Geberia's thread in the "Bible Discussions" forum. It makes it so much easier. In other points of Catholicism, however, keep it here.
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Post by falklands on Dec 21, 2005 18:16:47 GMT -5
You can slip out of God's grace if you reject him, or, in this case, just use him. Saying, "since I believe and have accepted him, I can sin all I want and it won't matter," doesn't work. We are still sinning, and are still going through a sanctification process to free ourselves completely from sin. That process isn't over when we die. Thus, purgatory. The sancification process. Ah, we've got back to it again. Well, I made a post a couple pages ago explaining my view of this. Anyone else agree with me? |
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Post by heartofgold on Dec 21, 2005 19:09:49 GMT -5
You can slip out of God's grace if you reject him, or, in this case, just use him. Saying, "since I believe and have accepted him, I can sin all I want and it won't matter," doesn't work. We are still sinning, and are still going through a sanctification process to free ourselves completely from sin. That process isn't over when we die. Thus, purgatory. The sancification process. Ah, we've got back to it again. Well, I made a post a couple pages ago explaining my view of this. Anyone else agree with me? There's a problem with the way you're interpreting the verse, namely the fact that I don't think we can just sin all we want without any worry of anything happening. You can slip out of God's grace. But even if the above isn't true, your main goal in life is to get completely free from sin, correct? Weather sin does nothing to our soul or not, we still want to get rid of it. Hence, the sanctification process, hence purgatory. |
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Post by falklands on Dec 22, 2005 0:05:50 GMT -5
I also agreed that you can slip out of God's grace, but ONLY if you reject his forgiveness. I said this before: you should not go on sinning so that God's grace might be increased, hence Romans 6:1-2: "What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?"
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Post by heartofgold on Dec 22, 2005 12:20:32 GMT -5
Now thats true. God will forgive your sins unless you reject his forgivness. That was my basic point.
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Teckor
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Post by Teckor on Dec 22, 2005 16:30:22 GMT -5
.... personally, it wouldn't make sense to me if we could "lose" salvation. Sure, we sin, but those sins have been forgiven, utterly. And yes, it does give the impression that "oh, I can sin all I want" but that doesn't mean we should have that attitude,  b/c then we're being hypocritical. we're trying to get to God, but yet we're disobeying him every second then . plus, we become more aware of what is right and wrong, and since people usually want to do what is right, then they will do what is right instead of what is wrong. Also, remember, Jesus died for the remission of our sins. Hence, we are no longer held accountable to them. But still, that doesn't mean that we should continue on with what we do wrong. |
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Post by heartofgold on Dec 22, 2005 20:38:24 GMT -5
.... personally, it wouldn't make sense to me if we could "lose" salvation. Sure, we sin, but those sins have been forgiven, utterly. And yes, it does give the impression that "oh, I can sin all I want" but that doesn't mean we should have that attitude, b/c then we're being hypocritical. we're trying to get to God, but yet we're disobeying him every second then . plus, we become more aware of what is right and wrong, and since people usually want to do what is right, then they will do what is right instead of what is wrong. Also, remember, Jesus died for the remission of our sins. Hence, we are no longer held accountable to them. But still, that doesn't mean that we should continue on with what we do wrong. But I could continue doing wrong without anything bad happening, I just shouldn't. Right? The problem with the bible and salvation is it often speaks of it as past-and-present tense event, but it also often speaks of it as a future-tense event. But thats basically it. Salvation is past, present, and future. Yes, there are a lot of verses stating that nothing can pull us away from salvation, but there's nothing stopping us from opening up the door and jumping out. |
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Teckor
Full Member
.........what am I supposed to write? Something inspiring?
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Post by Teckor on Dec 23, 2005 16:11:28 GMT -5
But I could continue doing wrong without anything bad happening, I just shouldn't. Right? The problem with the bible and salvation is it often speaks of it as past-and-present tense event, but it also often speaks of it as a future-tense event. But thats basically it. Salvation is past, present, and future. Yes, there are a lot of verses stating that nothing can pull us away from salvation, but there's nothing stopping us from opening up the door and jumping out. True, we can sin, we do, but we shouldn't. Then we become hypocritical. Yes, I agree about slavation being past, present, and future. About "jumping out though". We can't really do that either, b/c the Holy Ghost won't let us. Or at least I would hope not. Otherwise then, there will probably be alot of people jumping ship when it comes to the end times and we have to decide whether or not to take the mark. Personally, you can't "jump" out of salvation, unless you don't really have it in the first place. Although, we are all simply human beings, beings that are imperfect and not always right, so we might be wrong, but we might be right in how we interpret things. |
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Post by heartofgold on Dec 23, 2005 18:50:30 GMT -5
But why wouldn't the Holy Spirit let us go? If you say "forget you God! I'm going on my own!" why wouldn't he let you go? Would he force you to believe?
Lets use an example, say, oh, Bob. Bob is a well meaning Christian guy. Prays every night, helps guys by the side of the road, in short, a really good guy. But one day, he flips, shoots someone, leaves the faith, and ends up in prison for the rest of his life. Did he not have salvation to begin with? When he prayed and fervently believed in God, did he not actually have salvation, he just thought he did? Or did he have it, then lose it?
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Post by falklands on Dec 23, 2005 19:35:20 GMT -5
"Leaving the faith" would mean rejecting God's forgiveness. If he killed someone and accepted God's forgiveness his state of salvation would not change.
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Post by heartofgold on Dec 23, 2005 20:16:38 GMT -5
Thats true, but if he hadn't accepted it, his state of salvation would change. So he wouldn't be "once saved always saved."
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Post by falklands on Dec 23, 2005 21:58:49 GMT -5
I think you're not getting at the point here. Before you've accepted Christ you, well, have not accepted Him. God won't save you then unless you accept His forgiveness. But once you have accepted his forgiveness and believe in Him (read Romans 10:9), you are saved. No matter what you do (that includes Bob shooting someone and ending up in prison), you will still be saved. Unless you reject His forgiveness. But that does not usually happen. No matter how bad you feel about it, if you believe that Jesus died for your sins you will still be saved. But leaving the faith is a momentous thing. That would mean you have utterly rejected Christ and despise His forgiveness enough to reject even that. That is what Christ means when he said "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven". Jesus in that verse emphasized his status as a man. There were many people claiming to be prophets around that time and He was just as likely to receive derisive treatment as the rest of 'em. But blaspheming God would mean you have rejected Him. Rejecting Him would mean rejecting His forgiveness, and God will only forgive when you accept His forgiveness.
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Post by heartofgold on Dec 23, 2005 22:44:43 GMT -5
I think you're not getting at the point here. Before you've accepted Christ you, well, have not accepted Him. God won't save you then unless you accept His forgiveness. But once you have accepted his forgiveness and believe in Him (read Romans 10:9), you are saved. No matter what you do (that includes Bob shooting someone and ending up in prison), you will still be saved. Unless you reject His forgiveness. But that does not usually happen. No matter how bad you feel about it, if you believe that Jesus died for your sins you will still be saved. But leaving the faith is a momentous thing. That would mean you have utterly rejected Christ and despise His forgiveness enough to reject even that. That is what Christ means when he said "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven". Jesus in that verse emphasized his status as a man. There were many people claiming to be prophets around that time and He was just as likely to receive derisive treatment as the rest of 'em. But blaspheming God would mean you have rejected Him. Rejecting Him would mean rejecting His forgiveness, and God will only forgive when you accept His forgiveness. That is my point. If you accept that Christ is Lord, great. But if you reject him, which does happen, not great. But the point is you can reject him. Its not a "once saved always saved" kinda thing. |
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Post by falklands on Dec 26, 2005 14:07:55 GMT -5
...So what do we disagree on? ;D
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Post by Armany on Dec 27, 2005 9:39:01 GMT -5
Here's an interesting passage my pastor spoke on a few weeks ago. It applies to your argument, though you're not really disagreeing at this point, so I have no clue what the argument is! ;D
From Hebrews 6: 4-6:
This passage basically says that you can lose your salvation. My pastor explained this as the following:
-This passage was written in the context of a "pastor" or a teacher to his/her church in the early A.D. 100's. During this time, Christians faced the threat of the Imperial Cult, an act instituted by the Roman Gov't. that basically forced the entire populace of the Empire to burn some incense on an altar and say a few words that basically proclaimed, "Caesar is Lord." As a Christian, this would be renouncing Christ. This is what the pastor was warning his people to avoid, saying that they would "lose their salvation" if they rejected Christ and committed apostasy, which in Greek literally means "falling away."
- My pastor, not the author, reiterated that an apostasy was a "willful rejection of the truth; willfully rejecting Christ or willfully rebelling against God." He summed the passage up as follows: God's not going condemn you to Hell if you get caught on a bad day and slip up and swear. He's not going to condemn you for getting mad and saying something that you shouldn't. You will lose your salvation, however, if you reject Jesus and "crucify Him over and over" and "put him to public disgrace." Such is an act of apostasy.
If you keep on doing the little things, however, it is my personal belief that you'll lose your salvation. As heartofgold pointed out, if Bob murdered someone and never repented for it and told Jesus to "take a hike," then hasn't he lost his ticket to Heaven? Even though Jesus provided a way for Bob to attain forgiveness on the Cross, Bob still has to accept it and genuinely become a changed person to receive atonement.
As the Apostle Paul said: Put on your new self and put off your old self.
If you're a Christian, you have to stay out of your sinful way of life that is in your human nature. There may be some slip-ups, you can bet, but if you don't try to live a pure life, then you're basically rejecting God and rebelling. And isn't that, by definition, an apostasy, if one constantly sins and falls away, even though they are saved and a supposedly changed person?
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Post by falklands on Dec 27, 2005 16:56:33 GMT -5
Here's an interesting passage my pastor spoke on a few weeks ago. It applies to your argument, though you're not really disagreeing at this point, so I have no clue what the argument is! ;D From Hebrews 6: 4-6: This passage basically says that you can lose your salvation. My pastor explained this as the following: -This passage was written in the context of a "pastor" or a teacher to his/her church in the early A.D. 100's. During this time, Christians faced the threat of the Imperial Cult, an act instituted by the Roman Gov't. that basically forced the entire populace of the Empire to burn some incense on an altar and say a few words that basically proclaimed, "Caesar is Lord." As a Christian, this would be renouncing Christ. This is what the pastor was warning his people to avoid, saying that they would "lose their salvation" if they rejected Christ and committed apostasy, which in Greek literally means "falling away." - My pastor, not the author, reiterated that an apostasy was a "willful rejection of the truth; willfully rejecting Christ or willfully rebelling against God." He summed the passage up as follows: God's not going condemn you to Hell if you get caught on a bad day and slip up and swear. He's not going to condemn you for getting mad and saying something that you shouldn't. You will lose your salvation, however, if you reject Jesus and "crucify Him over and over" and "put him to public disgrace." Such is an act of apostasy.That's what we all are saying. So, we are of one Toyota. ;D It is his telling Jesus to "take a hike" that would be the point where he lost his salvation (if he had it beforehand), not the murder or the slipping into sin. Although slipping into sin can be a form of rejection. |
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Post by falklands on Dec 27, 2005 17:33:25 GMT -5
...So what do we disagree on again? Oh yes, the sanctification process. ;D
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Post by heartofgold on Dec 31, 2005 22:38:56 GMT -5
...So what do we disagree on again? Oh yes, the sanctification process. ;D Well, I hate to break it to you, but if you agree that you can slip out of God's grace, you have to agree that there is a sanctification process. |
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Post by falklands on Jan 1, 2006 13:18:52 GMT -5
Haven't I already agreed there was a santification processs? I think we are just disagreeing on what form it takes.
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Teckor
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Post by Teckor on Jan 1, 2006 13:40:40 GMT -5
..... you know what I just thought of, the saying "Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder".
Sure, we can all agree/disagree/etc. on some things, b/c of the fact that there is such a thing as "interpretation" which has it's ups and downs. The Bible says a good number of things which need interpretation (ie: the end times). However, some of the more basic/fundamental principles we should not compromise on (ie: Christ's death, the fact that faith is an essential to get to Heaven, and etc).
I leave this arguement to the rest of u that wish to continue.
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Post by Aslan the Great Lion on Jan 1, 2006 14:09:30 GMT -5
I think that it doesn't matter what you call yourself, it is where you heart is and what you believe. If a Christian does not believe that Jesus is the messiah and died for our sins then they will not go to heaven, but then a Catholic can believe that and go to heaven. And vise versa. I think it is where your heart is and what you believe over than what you are called. Personally, I am a Christian, but I think that Catholics can be Christians if they believe that Jesus is the only way to get to heaven and he is God and the messiah.
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b/c then we're being hypocritical. we're trying to get to God, but yet we're disobeying him every second then 