Christianity & Catholicism

[falklands]

heartofgold said:

The bible says days when it could've meant years during creation, it could be doing so here.

I also believe that the Bible means days when it means days.

I did not deny that we have been freed from sin, I am saying there is still a sanctification process. That sanctification process usually isn't over when we die, thus, the need for Purgatory.

You said that we are not freed from sin until after death in this quote:

It doesn't say when they are freed from sin does it? For all we know its a reference to purgatory, when we are freed from sin after we die.

Yet Paul in Romans is speaking of us (who are alive) as being freed from sin.

With regard to this process of sancification, I do believe that we should try to get rid of all the sin in our lives (with God's help). In that sense, there is a sanctification process, yet I cannot deny the scriptures saying that we are "white as snow". God says "I will remember their sin no more", also acknowleging that we still sin, but yet that sin does not count against our purity.

Jeremiah 31:14 (New International Version)


14 I will satisfy the priests with abundance,
and my people will be filled with my bounty,"
declares the LORD.

Um, please explain.

Sorry, that was Jeremiah 31:34. A tyop. ;D

Ah, but Catholics view baptism as more than just "symbolic of an inner decision". For Catholics is is the remission of sins, which would be Original Sin for infants as they cannot sin, something you want to get rid of.
Peter explained what happens at baptism in Acts 2:38, but he did not limit it to adults. We also read "Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name" (Acts 22:16).
There is also a connection between baptism and salvation, a connection explicitly stated in
1 Peter 3:21

I do believe Baptism is extremely important. If we don't get baptized we are disobeying God. But I don't believe the actual act of being dunked in the water is what brings salvation. I found this site www.carm.org/doctrine/1Pet_3_21.htm which shows this. Here is it's conclusion, but please also read the rest of the article:

1 Pet. 3:21 is not teaching us that baptism is what saves us. Rather, it is showing us that the water symbolizes a spiritual cleansing through the power of the Holy Spirit gained through Christ’s victory over death. It is the person's appeal to God that saves the soul, not the washing of water upon the body.

Yet I firmly believe that we should get baptized. I have in fact decided to get baptized a week from Sunday. Woohoo!

Here are two quotes you gave which seem to be a little contradictory to your premises.

If Christ had paid the full price your talking about, we would be forgiven as soon as we commit our sins.

Christ died paid the infinte price 2000 years ago

I know I took this out of context (The context being the sancification process), but still, that does not eliminate the implications of these statements.

[heartofgold]

I also believe that the Bible means days when it means days.

Its possible, but the big question is, how can you have "morning and evening" if there isn't any sun?

You said that we are not freed from sin until after death in this quote:


Quote:It doesn't say when they are freed from sin does it? For all we know its a reference to purgatory, when we are freed from sin after we die.



Yet Paul in Romans is speaking of us (who are alive) as being freed from sin.

With regard to this process of sancification, I do believe that we should try to get rid of all the sin in our lives (with God's help). In that sense, there is a sanctification process, yet I cannot deny the scriptures saying that we are "white as snow". God says "I will remember their sin no more", also acknowleging that we still sin, but yet that sin does not count against our purity You said that we are not freed from sin until after death in this quote:


Quote:It doesn't say when they are freed from sin does it? For all we know its a reference to purgatory, when we are freed from sin after we die.



Yet Paul in Romans is speaking of us (who are alive) as being freed from sin.

With regard to this process of sancification, I do believe that we should try to get rid of all the sin in our lives (with God's help). In that sense, there is a sanctification process, yet I cannot deny the scriptures saying that we are "white as snow". God says "I will remember their sin no more", also acknowleging that we still sin, but yet that sin does not count against our purity.

I'm trying to use two deifintions and its not working, so I'm going to explain what I mean.
We are free from sin, but we are not sinless now. Thats where the sanctification process comes in.

31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.

32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them,"
declares the LORD.

33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time," declares the LORD.
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.

34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,"
declares the LORD.
"For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."

In context, it looks like that time God is talking about hasn't happened yet, as he appears to say that everyone will know the Lord.

I do believe Baptism is extremely important. If we don't get baptized we are disobeying God. But I don't believe the actual act of being dunked in the water is what brings salvation. I found this site www.carm.org/doctrine/1Pet_3_21.htm which shows this. Here is it's conclusion, but please also read the rest of the article:


Quote:1 Pet. 3:21 is not teaching us that baptism is what saves us. Rather, it is showing us that the water symbolizes a spiritual cleansing through the power of the Holy Spirit gained through Christ’s victory over death. It is the person's appeal to God that saves the soul, not the washing of water upon the body.



Yet I firmly believe that we should get baptized. I have in fact decided to get baptized a week from Sunday. Woohoo!

You can interprete that verse like that, but you can't ignore Acts 2:38.

38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Thats what baptism is.

Oh, and thats great you getting baptized, no matter what you thing about it.

Here are two quotes you gave which seem to be a little contradictory to your premises.


Quote:If Christ had paid the full price your talking about, we would be forgiven as soon as we commit our sins.




Quote:Christ died paid the infinte price 2000 years ago



I know I took this out of context (The context being the sancification process), but still, that does not eliminate the implications of these statements.

Same answer as above. The point is, God did not immieditly make us sinless, and he does not automaticly forgive our sins weather we're sorry or not. You can slip out of Gods grace.

Oh, and the spell check didn't work

[falklands]

heartofgold said:

Its possible, but the big question is, how can you have "morning and evening" if there isn't any sun?

We'll never know how, even if we know the fact itself.

I'm trying to use two deifintions and its not working, so I'm going to explain what I mean.
We are free from sin, but we are not sinless now. Thats where the sanctification process comes in.

31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.

32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them,"
declares the LORD.

33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time," declares the LORD.
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.

34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,"
declares the LORD.
"For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."

In context, it looks like that time God is talking about hasn't happened yet, as he appears to say that everyone will know the Lord.

It is speaking of the New Covenant, right? That is also spoken of in the New Testament (in the present tense), Anno Domini, in the Year of Our Lord. The time is now, because even though it speaks of all knowing the Lord, that time would never truly be, since some will always be in Hell.

You can interprete that verse like that, but you can't ignore Acts 2:38.

38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Thats what baptism is.

I'm really sorry but I'm going to quote the same website again: www.carm.org/doctrine/acts_2_38.htm There is a story in Acts 10:44-48 which shows people receiving the Holy Spirit and praising God (they would have to be Christians), before becoming baptized. This demonstrates that Baptism is not what saves you. Instead, "If you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." (Romans 10:9)

Same answer as above. The point is, God did not immieditly make us sinless, and he does not automaticly forgive our sins weather we're sorry or not. You can slip out of Gods grace.

Now it's getting to a simple matter of opinion. In the first post I made on this page, I acknowledged the sanctification process while still acknowledging that we are "white as snow". You do the same, but put different emphases on these two things. It looks like we'll never be able to come to a mutual conclusion on this...

But all the same, the implications of your statements remain. You said that if Christ paid the full price, our sins would be forgiven as soon as we commited them, and later you said that Christ did pay the infinite price. It would follow that "we would be forgiven as soon as we commit our sins."

[heartofgold]

It is speaking of the New Covenant, right? That is also spoken of in the New Testament (in the present tense), Anno Domini, in the Year of Our Lord. The time is now, because even though it speaks of all knowing the Lord, that time would never truly be, since some will always be in Hell.

Why, then, does it say "everyone will know me," if everyone won't?
There are many different ways of interpreting this passage, but my point remains the same. God does not instantly forgive sins weather we're sorry or not. You can fall out of Gods grace.

I'm really sorry but I'm going to quote the same website again: www.carm.org/doctrine/acts_2_38.htm There is a story in Acts 10:44-48 which shows people receiving the Holy Spirit and praising God (they would have to be Christians), before becoming baptized. This demonstrates that Baptism is not what saves you. Instead, "If you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." (Romans 10:9)

I'm not going to say Baptism alone is what saves you. That would contradict everything I just said. Baptism is, however, extremely important (hence Acts 2:38). But, even if you are baptized, you can still fall out of God's grace.

Now it's getting to a simple matter of opinion. In the first post I made on this page, I acknowledged the sanctification process while still acknowledging that we are "white as snow". You do the same, but put different emphases on these two things. It looks like we'll never be able to come to a mutual conclusion on this...

But all the same, the implications of your statements remain. You said that if Christ paid the full price, our sins would be forgiven as soon as we committed them, and later you said that Christ did pay the infinite price. It would follow that "we would be forgiven as soon as we commit our sins."

When I said "full price" I meant him paying the price without the need for sanctification. Sanctification is necessary, since we're all still sinning.

[falklands]

You can only fall out of God's grace if you reject his forgivness. You can still sin while in a state of accepting that forgiveness, even though we should never do that in the first place (Romans 6:1-2). Of course, we should never have sinned in the first place either... ;D

I think we are only restating our beliefs now. We have both given proofs and rejected our opponents', and now are only repeating ourselves. I think that is a good place to end serious discussion of this issue (sanctification & sin) Please don't take this as a admission of cowardice and defeat, however ;D We'll find more topics to disagree on

[heartofgold]

Well, we used to be discussing Purgatory, but I'm not sure where we are now.

We could do the Faith Alone issue, that was a fun one...

[falklands]

;DHow about let's try and see what we DO agree on

[heartofgold]

How about let's try and see what we DO agree on

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm... ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm... yea. So, uh, how 'bout them Chiefs?

Well, I think we got the whole "Catholics are Christians" thing down. Thats a step in the right direction... (although I notice 4 people still think I'm gonna burn).

[falklands]

Ok...I think we all believe that Jesus is the son of the Living God, that he came down to earth, dying for our sins, and that acceptance of his grace leads to redemption. Anything else? ;D

[heartofgold]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, yea.

I think the problem is Catholics have traditions that everyone else doesn't have. But thats basically Catholicism in a nutshell. Christians with traditions.

[falklands]

...unlike the Puritans ;D

[heartofgold]

I still want those four people who have deicided Catholics aren't Christians to come forward...

[falklands]

One of them already has, namely St. James Island.

[gynovia]

geberia said:

Well, as I said in the beginning of the debate, I titled the question wrong. It's not "Are Catholics Christians?" more than, "Does doing good works get you to heaven?" That was the point I was really trying to get across. And I think that if Catholics think they can go to heaven by works, they're clearly wrong and I don't consider them Christians. If they are saved, and just like a member of the Catholic church (as heartofgold is here) then I do consider them Christians.

That was really my argument against the Catholic church - that works cannot get you to heaven. it seems like everyone here agrees with me on that point.

That more of the issue here. If Catholics ( or anybody else) think that they can get to heaven by good works ( which mostcatholics do) then no, i don't think that they are christians. and what i mean by christian is a person who knows that they are a sinner, and realizes that good works don't get you to heaven, and recieves Jesus into their heart as their saviour. I;m not picking on catholics. but generally( i know that there might be exceptions) thats what they tend to believe. So, yes, some catholics are christians. i'm not the judge of whose saved and whose not though, so don't take this the wrong way

[heartofgold]

That more of the issue here. If Catholics ( or anybody else) think that they can get to heaven by good works ( which mostcatholics do) then no, i don't think that they are christians. and what i mean by christian is a person who knows that they are a sinner, and realizes that good works don't get you to heaven, and recieves Jesus into their heart as their saviour. I;m not picking on catholics. but generally( i know that there might be exceptions) thats what they tend to believe. So, yes, some catholics are christians. i'm not the judge of whose saved and whose not though, so don't take this the wrong way

No catholic, and I mean no catholic, believes you can get to heaven on you good works alone.
However, do you believe that if you have faith, but not works, your faith can save you?

[falklands]

gynovia said:

That more of the issue here. If Catholics ( or anybody else) think that they can get to heaven by good works ( which mostcatholics do) then no, i don't think that they are christians. and what i mean by christian is a person who knows that they are a sinner, and realizes that good works don't get you to heaven, and recieves Jesus into their heart as their saviour. I;m not picking on catholics. but generally( i know that there might be exceptions) thats what they tend to believe. So, yes, some catholics are christians. i'm not the judge of whose saved and whose not though, so don't take this the wrong way

Gynovia, I'd say it would be the other way round. Just about every Catholic I have met believes that faith is necessary for salvation as well as works (take heartofgold here), although they might not seem to emphasize it as much as we'd like. That may be because Catholics take salvation by faith for granted. I have known a couple Catholics, however, who do not believe in God at all or do what you have a problem with - salvation by works alone. One might call them not very good Catholics.

My point still remains. Most Catholics are one of those "exceptions" and believe in salvation by faith (and works).

[heartofgold]

Gynovia, I'd say it would be the other way round. Just about every Catholic I have met believes that faith is necessary for salvation as well as works (take heartofgold here), although they might not seem to emphasize it as much as we'd like.

The reason we emphasize good works is because of James 2: 14-25.

That may be because Catholics take salvation by faith for granted.

That is very true. Sometimes it seems like when Luther and everyone else left, the stripped the faith of a lot of cool stuff. Then they turned around and said, "well, since you still have those things, which are way old-school, you must not emphasize the important things." It was more like everyone took these things for granted. But since Luther and everyone didn't have the cool stuff, they had to really, really, emphasize the bare aspects of the Christian faith.

I have known a couple Catholics, however, who do not believe in God at all or do what you have a problem with - salvation by works alone. One might call them not very good Catholics.

Well, don't judge most Catholics by them. The Catholic Church does have official doctrine which everyone is supposed to follow, and salvation by good works alone is not one of them.

[gynovia]

well, good for them then! most of the catholics that i've known emphasize salvation by good works alone, thats all. apparently, they're not good catholics then!?

[heartofgold]

gynovia said:

well, good for them then! most of the catholics that i've known emphasize salvation by good works alone, thats all. apparently, they're not good catholics then!?

I suspect that this is a misunderstanding. Most people who aren't Catholic seem to think catholics emphasize salvation by good works alone. Not true. However, catholics do emphasize good works because of James 2: 14-25, where it says good works are needed with faith for salvation.

[gynovia]

good. around here though thats not really emphasized. the faith part is often left out i'm glad to hear that it is part of the catholic teachings though.

[heartofgold]

I still think you're just misunderstanding what their saying. There are very, very few catholics who believe in salvation by faith alone.

Catholics tend to fall into two categories: Good catholics, the ones who know their faith and practice it, and Bad Catholics, who all they know is there's a virgin Mary and have no idea who she is. But usually you don't just have a Catholic who just blows off church teachings when he (or she if I'm offending anyone ) knows what they are.

EDIT: Sorry, that was supposed to say "catholics who believe in salvation by works alone." Sorry!

[Teckor]

Personally, "Catholics" are not "Christians". However, someone can go to a "Catholic" church and be a "Chrisitan". Although, alot of this mess is caused by problems with definitions or with what Christ "actually" taught.

Personal beliefs:
Faith saves us, not works.
Two ways after death, Heaven and Hell, no fence in between.
Jesus cleansed us of our sins so that we can go to Heaven.

I hope that everything I just said doesn't start the arguement up again at least ot the level that it was.

[heartofgold]

Faith saves us, not works.

Works alone will not save you. You have to have faith too. ("ya just gotta believe!" ) However, you have to have works as stated in James 2:14-26.

Two ways after death, Heaven and Hell, no fence in between.

Well, this brings up purgatory again. I'm going to try one more time to explain it clearly.
OK, here goes.

We all believe that Christ paid the price 2000 years ago, correct?
But we also would all believe that their is a sanctification process, as we are all still sinning, correct?
Now, most of would accept the fact that this sanctification process isn't over when we die, we are still sinners when we die (most of us anyway), correct?
Thus, the need for purgatory. That sanctification process must continue until complete so "nothing unclean will enter heaven."

Thats it in a nutshell.

Jesus cleansed us of our sins so that we can go to Heaven.

Thats what every Christian believes. If you don't believe that, your not a Christian.

I hope that everything I just said doesn't start the arguement up again at least ot the level that it was.

It wasn't that bad. Believe me. You just haven't looked around the forum enough. Me and Falklands and all the rest were having a grand old time everywhere else. Especially in my campaign headquarters (vote for me).

[Teckor]

heartofgold said:

Faith saves us, not works.

Works alone will not save you. You have to have faith too. ("ya just gotta believe!" ) However, you have to have works as stated in James 2:14-26.



Well, this brings up purgatory again. I'm going to try one more time to explain it clearly.
OK, here goes.

We all believe that Christ paid the price 2000 years ago, correct?
But we also would all believe that their is a sanctification process, as we are all still sinning, correct?
Now, most of would accept the fact that this sanctification process isn't over when we die, we are still sinners when we die (most of us anyway), correct?
Thus, the need for purgatory. That sanctification process must continue until complete so "nothing unclean will enter heaven."

Thats it in a nutshell.



Thats what every Christian believes. If you don't believe that, your not a Christian.

I hope that everything I just said doesn't start the arguement up again at least ot the level that it was.

It wasn't that bad. Believe me. You just haven't looked around the forum enough. Me and Falklands and all the rest were having a grand old time everywhere else. Especially in my campaign headquarters (vote for me).

....... let me try again. Faith is all that's required, no matter how much u work, u cant "earn" your way into Hevean. However, what it's talking about in James could be the fact that it is better to show that you are saved than to hide it. The fact that if you don't use the information then u might as well not have it in the first place.

Purgatory, unnecessary. We are "cleansed" by Jesus's blood. (ie: my sins are washed away, Jesus took the price) Hence, we are not accountable for our sins anymore, we just have to accept this gift. Plus, not to mention that if there was a purgatory then Christ's death would be unnecessary.

Still, (*shrugs shoulders*) you believe what you want, if it doesn't affect your belief in salvation then fine by me, but I disagree.

[heartofgold]

let me try again. Faith is all that's required, no matter how much u work, u cant "earn" your way into Hevean. However, what it's talking about in James could be the fact that it is better to show that you are saved than to hide it. The fact that if you don't use the information then u might as well not have it in the first place.

James 2:24

24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

Purgatory, unnecessary. We are "cleansed" by Jesus's blood. (ie: my sins are washed away, Jesus took the price) Hence, we are not accountable for our sins anymore, we just have to accept this gift. Plus, not to mention that if there was a purgatory then Christ's death would be unnecessary.

But you have to say there's a sanctification process, we're all still sinning, we're all still sinners. We're all going to be sinners when we die (most of us anyway), and nothing unclean can enter heaven. Thus, purgatory.