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Post by Geberia on Dec 19, 2005 13:11:58 GMT -5
Well, we have all been debating for many long hours about Cathlics being Christians and whatnot, and today as I was reading in my Bible I came across those verses that heartofgold is always saying, in James 2. The verses state that faith without works is dead and you cannot be justified without it. But then, I thought, what about the verses in Romans 3 where it says, "Therefore we conclude that we are justified by faith without the deed of the law." It seems to be a contradiction - are you saved by works and faith, or just faith? Here is the little message wrote down in my Bible study today, and I hope it helps you all like it helped me. I just found it cool. You can look and look for contridictions in the Bible, but you'll never find them  All throughout the Bible, faith and works seem to go hand in hand. Yet in Romans, Paul seems to think that faith alone can save you. How can these things be? You see, it is like a building. Faith is the foundation, and good works are the buliding that we put on top of the foundation. No one can really see faith, yet it's there. Works are all we see. Before we can have any works that count for eternity, we must have faith. And what good is a foundation if you don't have any works to put on it? In the scripture Jesus tell the parable of the "wise man who built his house upon the Rock." First, he had to have the rock, for without it he would be as the man who " built his house on sinking sand. Sure the house was pretty, but when storms came, it collapsed. So our works are with out faith. Likewise, you can have a bedrock of faith, but what good is it if you don't have any works to show for it either? It is "dead." So, in short, I am saying that you CAN go to heaven w/o works, but it would not look good because when we are judged by our works ( they're thrown in the fire and etc...) we will have nothing to show but wood, stubble, and hay. This is why we are commanded to be a 'doer of the word, not a hearer only.' |
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Post by Triphus (Titanian) on Dec 19, 2005 14:13:43 GMT -5
wow thanks GEB that's awesome
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Post by gynovia on Dec 19, 2005 15:29:38 GMT -5
yes, thats pretty cool  |
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Post by Armany on Dec 19, 2005 17:26:10 GMT -5
Good thought, Geb! ;D
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Post by falklands on Dec 19, 2005 20:18:10 GMT -5
great Geb! Yeah, it's quite apparent that faith alone CAN save, because you think of those who have become saved on their deathbeds, not having done (nor having had the opportunity to do) any good works in Christ but dying in Him all the same.
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Post by heartofgold on Dec 20, 2005 0:31:33 GMT -5
Wait. I don't get it. You say faith without works is dead, but our faith will save us.  Also, it does say in James 2: 14-25 that faith alone will NOT save you. I don't know about people becoming saved on their deathbeds. I suspect they would be another special category though. |
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Post by New Titania (TD) on Dec 20, 2005 1:54:35 GMT -5
You catholics have way too many layers of hell and "categories." Here's how it goes: God is just. He will decide whether or not we go to hell, and what He decides will be right. Churches may try and say what d**nation requires (besides rejecting Christ) but only God has a say in it. Truth is, God could care less what we think it should be.
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Post by heartofgold on Dec 20, 2005 11:47:45 GMT -5
OK first off, no, we don't have layers of hell and heaven. Sorry. Second, categories are pretty basic stuff. Aborted babies can't sin, severely retarded people can't sin, and so on. When I say categories, I mean I have trouble believing that God would throw someone who, for instance, was on their deathbed when they were saved, into hell.
Very true. Nice way to sum it up. Thats actually not something catholics do is sit their and decide where someone goes after death. And believe me, there a are a lot of other people who spend over half their time and energy trying to figure out where someone goes.
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Post by heartofgold on Dec 20, 2005 12:00:30 GMT -5
Oh, and here's another argument I found, which I think has some sense.
When Martin Luther translated Romans 3:28 into German in the sixteenth century, he added the word alone. However, the word alone doesn't appear in the original Greek text. The phrase "faith alone" appears once in the New Testament, and that is in James 2:24, where it says:
"You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone."
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Post by Geberia on Dec 20, 2005 13:26:36 GMT -5
well, I don't know about you, but I don't use a German Bible. LOL. I made this thread not to bring up our differneces again, but rather to resolve them. I wanted to emphasize the fact that faith and works are not against each other, but rather they work together in our Christian walk to bring us to salvation and deepen our walk with God. I find the verse in Romans 4:3 intresting, " For what saith the scripture? Arbraham believed God (there's the faith) and it was counted unto him for rightgeousness (works). Faith came first, but works completed it. I know we disagree on alto of things regarding Catholicism, heartofgold, but I'm really in no mood to debate them now  |
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Post by heartofgold on Dec 20, 2005 14:49:40 GMT -5
Well thats very true. Faith and works go hand in hand for salvation. Thats the point I've been trying to make.
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Post by gynovia on Dec 20, 2005 14:53:55 GMT -5
okay........................... why are we arguing about it then? ;D jk
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Post by Armany on Dec 20, 2005 17:36:52 GMT -5
Because everyone here loves to debate!
I thought that Geb's post made a lot of sense; it basically said what you're saying, heartofgold: Faith and works are neccessary for salvation.
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Post by heartofgold on Dec 20, 2005 18:29:30 GMT -5
Because everyone here loves to debate! I thought that Geb's post made a lot of sense; it basically said what you're saying, heartofgold: Faith and works are neccessary for salvation. Thank you! Yes, we've had long-winded debates about this, and apparently for no particular reason. hmmm.... |
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Teckor
Full Member
.........what am I supposed to write? Something inspiring?
Posts: 154
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Post by Teckor on Dec 20, 2005 19:49:47 GMT -5
just to wrap up what I've read then:
Faith = required for Heaven
Works = not required, but benificial + uses our faith for what it is partially meant, reach out to others.
That's all that I got or can add.
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Post by New Titania (TD) on Dec 20, 2005 20:29:55 GMT -5
Thats actually not something catholics do is sit their and decide where someone goes after death. Well, you guys have "saints" which means somebody you're bound and detirmined is going to heaven. In addition to my earlier two cents--just believe in Jesus, be saved by His blood, and live your life in the example of Christ. If you live as Christ lived (or try to, anyway) this will include good works. I think it's almost involuntary that Christians do good works. |
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Post by heartofgold on Dec 20, 2005 23:52:23 GMT -5
Well, when its pretty clear that that person was a really really great person (hence John Paul II), they make them a saint. But does anyone here actually think John Paul II is in hell?
That's true. Its hard to be a good Christian without works.
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Post by New Titania (TD) on Dec 21, 2005 0:47:57 GMT -5
But does anyone here actually think John Paul II is in hell? My point is, we don't know. |
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Post by Geberia on Dec 21, 2005 7:57:29 GMT -5
Yeah, who can tell? really its just between you and God.
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Post by falklands on Dec 22, 2005 10:51:33 GMT -5
I don't know about people becoming saved on their deathbeds. I suspect they would be another special category though. I suspect there are not so many "special categories" as you think. Romans 10:9: "If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. " It does not say that you have to do this and then perform a good work in order to be saved. There are no distinctions between those in Christ Jesus. "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28) |
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Teckor
Full Member
.........what am I supposed to write? Something inspiring?
Posts: 154
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Post by Teckor on Dec 22, 2005 16:33:45 GMT -5
oh my goodness. I gotta write down Romans 10:9 somewhere, that explains what it means to be a Christian almost perfectly. Thx, Falklands.
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Post by falklands on Dec 22, 2005 16:39:25 GMT -5
Lol, but there's so much more to Christianity. Hence the Bible ;D
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Post by rndomnesorthirdday on Dec 22, 2005 17:56:12 GMT -5
I don't see works as necessary, but rather something that you do because you have faith. God won't judge us by our works, but rather by how well we know Him, but if we know Him, we will do works. Does that make any sense? It's like how your friends love you because you love them, not because of what you do for them. Or how your parents don't love you because you do chores, but if you love them you will do them.
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Teckor
Full Member
.........what am I supposed to write? Something inspiring?
Posts: 154
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Post by Teckor on Dec 23, 2005 16:05:02 GMT -5
true, very true, rndomn (hope you don't mind me shortening it ) still, it keeps it fairly simple though falklands, and it gives us a base and sort of a standard don't u think (not to say that being not standard is bad, or anything else) but it pretty well wraps up what it means to be a Christian (to a point). |
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Post by falklands on Dec 23, 2005 16:18:59 GMT -5
Yep. There is so much more to Christianity, yet that does not negate Romans 10:9. I wonder when heartofgold will look in this thread again.
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Also, it does say in James 2: 14-25 that faith alone will NOT save you.
