Faith vs. Works? I think not!

[heartofgold]

I wonder when heartofgold will look in this thread again.

Boo!

I suspect there are not so many "special categories" as you think. Romans 10:9: "If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. " It does not say that you have to do this and then perform a good work in order to be saved. There are no distinctions between those in Christ Jesus. "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28)

First off, my point with categories was I don't think God's going to throw aborted babes, or severely retarded people, or people saved on their deathbeds, into hell.

Now for Romans 10:9. No, it does not explicitly state we need works, but James 2:14-26 does. You have to use the rest of the bible too. I think these verses work together to form the big picture.

[Teckor]

heartofgold said:

I suspect there are not so many "special categories" as you think. Romans 10:9: "If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. " It does not say that you have to do this and then perform a good work in order to be saved. There are no distinctions between those in Christ Jesus. "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28)

First off, my point with categories was I don't think God's going to throw aborted babes, or severely retarded people, or people saved on their deathbeds, into hell.

Now for Romans 10:9. No, it does not explicitly state we need works, but James 2:14-26 does. You have to use the rest of the bible too. I think these verses work together to form the big picture.

But what about when Jesus says "I am the way the truth and the light, no man comes unto the Father but by me"? Doesn't that say that there is one way to Heaven? Doesn't it also suggest that what he says is the truth, is the most important?

Also, we can not save ourselves, otherwise Jesus wouldn't have needed to die.

Furthermore, what about the centurion who asked Jesus to heal his daughter? Jesus didn't tell him to go do something, instead he said that his faith was admirable. Or in another case with a crippled man he said that "your faith has made you whole" (correct me if I'm wrong). In conclusion, many of Jesus's miracles were faith based, not work based. So why would he have it any other way to get to Heaven? That would be hypocritical, saying that faith can save the body but that works are also needed to save the soul?

[falklands]

I was reading Galatians today and came across these passages from Galatians 2 and 3:

Galatians 2:

16 We...who know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
19
For through the law I died to the law, that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ;
20
yet I live, no longer I, but Christ lives in me; insofar as I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God who has loved me and given himself up for me.
21
I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing.

Galatians 3:

5
Does, then, the one who supplies the Spirit to you and works mighty deeds among you do so from works of the law or from faith in what you heard?
6
Thus Abraham "believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
7 Realize then that it is those who have faith who are children of Abraham.
8
Scripture, which saw in advance that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, foretold the good news to Abraham, saying, "Through you shall all the nations be blessed."
9
Consequently, those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham who had faith.
10
For all who depend on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who does not persevere in doing all the things written in the book of the law."
11
And that no one is justified before God by the law is clear, for "the one who is righteous by faith will live."
12
But the law does not depend on faith; rather, "the one who does these things will live by them."
13
Christ ransomed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who hangs on a tree,"
14
that the blessing of Abraham might be extended to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

[heartofgold]

falklands said:

I was reading Galatians today and came across these passages from Galatians 2 and 3:

Galatians 2:

16 We...who know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
19
For through the law I died to the law, that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ;
20
yet I live, no longer I, but Christ lives in me; insofar as I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God who has loved me and given himself up for me.
21
I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing.

Galatians 3:

5
Does, then, the one who supplies the Spirit to you and works mighty deeds among you do so from works of the law or from faith in what you heard?
6
Thus Abraham "believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
7 Realize then that it is those who have faith who are children of Abraham.
8
Scripture, which saw in advance that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, foretold the good news to Abraham, saying, "Through you shall all the nations be blessed."
9
Consequently, those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham who had faith.
10
For all who depend on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who does not persevere in doing all the things written in the book of the law."
11
And that no one is justified before God by the law is clear, for "the one who is righteous by faith will live."
12
But the law does not depend on faith; rather, "the one who does these things will live by them."
13
Christ ransomed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who hangs on a tree,"
14
that the blessing of Abraham might be extended to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Here Paul puts a lot of emphasis on salvation by faith, which is a very good thing. You are not saved by works alone. You have to do your works in faith.

But what about when Jesus says "I am the way the truth and the light, no man comes unto the Father but by me"? Doesn't that say that there is one way to Heaven? Doesn't it also suggest that what he says is the truth, is the most important?

Also, we can not save ourselves, otherwise Jesus wouldn't have needed to die.

Furthermore, what about the centurion who asked Jesus to heal his daughter? Jesus didn't tell him to go do something, instead he said that his faith was admirable. Or in another case with a crippled man he said that "your faith has made you whole" (correct me if I'm wrong). In conclusion, many of Jesus's miracles were faith based, not work based. So why would he have it any other way to get to Heaven? That would be hypocritical, saying that faith can save the body but that works are also needed to save the soul?

I must not be stressing this enough, so I'm going to write it in... (drum roll) CAPITAL LETTERS!!


YOU CANNOT SAVE YOURSELF WITH WORKS ALONE. YOU HAVE TO HAVE FAITH.

[Teckor]

Side note: Works tend to be a by-product of faith, true? So, it isn't necessarily needed but more of something which should be done.

[heartofgold]

teckor said:

Side note: Works tend to be a by-product of faith, true? So, it isn't necessarily needed but more of something which should be done.

I have one problem with this view, and thats that the bible says otherwise. Nowhere in the bible does it explicitly state that works are meaningless. It does explicitly state in the bible that Faith is meaningless without works.

[Armany]

heartofgold said:

teckor said:

Side note: Works tend to be a by-product of faith, true? So, it isn't necessarily needed but more of something which should be done.

I have one problem with this view, and thats that the bible says otherwise. Nowhere in the bible does it explicitly state that works are meaningless. It does explicitly state in the bible that Faith is meaningless without works.

But wouldn't works have meaning in the scenario Teckor has presented. EX.) You have faith (the meat and potatoes of your salvation), but you are expected to also exhibit good works. Here, faith would be the pre-requisite for salvation, with works as the next level of the deal.

[heartofgold]

armany said:

heartofgold said:

I have one problem with this view, and thats that the bible says otherwise. Nowhere in the bible does it explicitly state that works are meaningless. It does explicitly state in the bible that Faith is meaningless without works.

But wouldn't works have meaning in the scenario Teckor has presented. EX.) You have faith (the meat and potatoes of your salvation), but you are expected to also exhibit good works. Here, faith would be the pre-requisite for salvation, with works as the next level of the deal.

Oh. Ok, that works.

I thought he meant you should do good things because you're nice, but if you're not nice, it wouldn't make any difference. But I would agree with the above.

[falklands]

Basically, the verse in James is saying that if you don't do any works, your faith must be dead. He's obviously not saying that "oh, I've gotta remember to help however many little old ladies across the street today." No, it's not like that. Rather, good works are an exhibition of faith, and if no good works are performed, then that is an exhibition of a dead faith.

[heartofgold]

Thank you Falklands. Thats exactly what I'm trying to say.

The point is, if your brother shows up at you door, says, "I need money and I know your rich." You can't say, "yea, I am rich, and I really hope you find some money," then throw him out. Thats dead faith.

[falklands]

Lol, I was reffering to James in my previous post. I in fact misunderstood you as well. But seeing as you agree with me completely, I suppose there was no reason to debate ;D

[Aslan the Great Lion]

heartofgold said:

Thank you Falklands. Thats exactly what I'm trying to say.

The point is, if your brother shows up at you door, says, "I need money and I know your rich." You can't say, "yea, I am rich, and I really hope you find some money," then throw him out. Thats dead faith.

I totally agree with that. I think you need to help people and be examples for God.

[henk]

Only faith will get you into heaven/eternal life. Period. (john 3:16)

Good works are the result of being filled with the Holy Ghost; they are part of our gratefulness towards God. (Galatians 5:22)

[Geberia]

Yeah, and just like our faith shows in our works, sometimes our non-faithfulness shows in the works we don't do.

[heartofgold]

Excellent, are we carrying on? ;D

Only faith will get you into heaven/eternal life. Period. (john 3:16)

Good works are the result of being filled with the Holy Ghost; they are part of our gratefulness towards God. (Galatians 5:22)

John 3:16, while it does mention faith, doesn't explicitly say, "works are meaningless." However, James 2:24 explicitly says, "faith is meaningless without works." So what happens when you put the verses together? You have John with faith, and James with works. There you are. Other verses to prove my point include Matthew 7: 15-34, and verse of the like in Galatians.

I heard a great analogy (from a devout Protestant no less, except that I don't think its possible to be a devout Protestant, but that's OK). Lets take a tree. Now, if you have a tree, you stick it in the dirt, you water it, it gets sun, all that fun stuff, and it grows. But what if I took a broom, put some straws on it like branches, stuck it in the dirt, watered it, put it in the sun, isn't it a tree? Your going to say no, its obviously not a tree. Why? Its got the things sticking out of it, its got the dirt, its got the water, its got the sun, why isn't it a tree?
Well, the answer is the roots. It doesn't have any roots. Hence, we take the Christian. The Christian who's the tree (hmmmmm) has something to ground him in his faith. The broom however, is just sitting there in his salvation, which James says makes his faith meaningless.

Plus, its pretty obvious. You can't tell the little old lady who wants help crossing the street to buzz off. That would qualify as dead faith.

[Geberia]

Yeah, and like I said before, you can have dead faith but i also believe you can have dead works. Works without faith, to put it simply.

[heartofgold]

Yeah, and like I said before, you can have dead faith but i also believe you can have dead works. Works without faith, to put it simply.

This is probably mostly true. However, there are a lot of nice atheists out there who do nice things. Not all atheists are just hopeless wretches who wouldn't do anything for anybody unless there was a substantial amount of money involved (come the think of it most Christians aren't any better ;D). Point being, if an atheist helps a little old lady across the street, I don't think its a totally dead act. He did do something nice, that does count for something.

[Geberia]

Yeah, but dosn't get him into heaven.

[henk]

A nice reference to this 'atheïst-being-nice' subject is in 1 Corinthians 13:

"If I speak in the tongues of men and angels,
but have not love,
I have become sounding brass or a tinkling symbol.

And if I have prophecy and know all mysteries and all knowledge,
and if I have all faith so as to remove mountains,
but have not love, I am nothing.

And if I dole out all my goods, and
if I deliver my body that I may boast
but have not love, nothing I am profited. "

Where love IMO can be replaced with God (God is love)

[heartofgold]

henk said:

A nice reference to this 'atheïst-being-nice' subject is in 1 Corinthians 13:

"If I speak in the tongues of men and angels,
but have not love,
I have become sounding brass or a tinkling symbol.

And if I have prophecy and know all mysteries and all knowledge,
and if I have all faith so as to remove mountains,
but have not love, I am nothing.

And if I dole out all my goods, and
if I deliver my body that I may boast
but have not love, nothing I am profited. "

Where love IMO can be replaced with God (God is love)

...Which can be carried over to the works (man I'm good... ;D). It says here you need love ("all you need is love!" Wanka wanka wank. OK, I'm good now) in order to have salvation. However, love isn't faith, it would fall under the works category I think. Meaning that you do, in fact, need more than just faith for salvation.

But yes, your right about the nice atheist thing.

[Geberia]

Like I started out in saying at the beginning of this thread, studying Abraham in Romans 4 has really helped me. It says that faith was what gave him rightgeousness, but works were made as a symbol of his rightgeouness. It sounds redundant, but your works are a outward symbol of your faith.

[LilyJ]

I think it's kinda pointless to argue about whether or not you need works or not - someone who has faith isn't gonna go out and kill somebody, that's all there is to it. If you truly have faith, the works are simply part of it. SO if you say you have fiath, but you never do anything to show for it, you can't really mean it, right?

Likewise, someone who goes out and does zillions of good things, but doesn't have faith, is only doing them for him/her self, or for an individual they care about. To them it's a choice, not a lifestyle.

I think that's what Geberia was trying to say to begin with.

As for someone who gets saved on their death bed... that's all between God and them. If they find true, genuine faith, then I believe they will go to Heaven.

An interesting concept that I really don't know that much about is Purgatory. The idea is that SIn can't enter into Heaven, so sould do a sort of Penance for their sins before they can. They're forgiven, don't get me wrong, they've got genuine Faith, but their sins still need to be accounted for.
Does anyone know more about this?

[nella]

I know that the Bible never mentions purgetory. I also know that Jesus said he was going to prepare a place for us, not some places for us. Heaven and hell are both mentioned in the Bible. There are two places were we will all spend eternity: heaven and hell.

I also know that Jesus suffered the full wrath of our sin. If all our sin has been payed for, and if all God's wrath has been spent, there is no need for those who trust in Him to suffer in any place like purgatory.

~Nella

[aquahelper]

((I'm new here so... hi))
I believe (I would say im agreeign with someone but im in a rush and forgot most of what I just read) that one does not need to work to get to heaven, for Ephesians 2:8-9 says: (sorry quickpost here)
Taken from NIV:
8 For it is by GRACE you have been saved ,through FAITH and this NOT OF YOURSELVES, it is the GIFT of God-
9 NOT BY WORKS, so that no one can boast

This clearly states that one does not need works to enter heaven, and yet works is what one should do. They are actions that represent your faith

[heartofgold]

This clearly states that one does not need works to enter heaven, and yet works is what one should do. They are actions that represent your faith

Well, to some extent your right. Works don't get you to heaven by themselves, but without them you won't get there.