torc
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Posts: 188
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Post by torc on Nov 12, 2006 11:22:09 GMT -5
Christians should rejoice at the triumph of good over evil. However, a group has said that if it is televised, we will have a sadaam hanging party and eat and make popcorn and have an uproarious cheer abound when the door drops...woudl that eb sinful?
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Post by steelsheen on Nov 12, 2006 11:57:09 GMT -5
Would it be sinful?
Rejoice not when your enemy stumbles, lest God turn his wrath from him upon you.
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Post by New Titania (TD) on Nov 13, 2006 7:58:48 GMT -5
As Christians, we should be hurt by seeing anyone die....like it or not, we're all children of God here.
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Post by heartofgold on Nov 13, 2006 12:18:42 GMT -5
Plus it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that this is just really, really weird. In general, if its really, really weird, its probably not a good thing to do.
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Post by nella on Nov 13, 2006 15:32:46 GMT -5
10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm. 14 Stand therefore, having fastened on the belt of truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and, as shoes for your feet, having put on the readiness given by the gospel of peace. 16 In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one; 17 and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, 18 praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints, 19 and also for me, that words may be given to me in opening my mouth boldly to proclaim the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains, that I may declare it boldly, as I ought to speak.
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Post by heartofgold on Nov 14, 2006 12:44:20 GMT -5
10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm. 14 Stand therefore, having fastened on the belt of truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and, as shoes for your feet, having put on the readiness given by the gospel of peace. 16 In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one; 17 and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, 18 praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints, 19 and also for me, that words may be given to me in opening my mouth boldly to proclaim the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains, that I may declare it boldly, as I ought to speak. Um, what exactly is your point? Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding you, but whatever else Saddam might be, he's not the devil. Therefore we don't rejoice at his death. |
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torc
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Post by torc on Nov 15, 2006 1:03:19 GMT -5
i like this discussion....but the put on the armoe of God passage is one of my favorites. I never thought of it this way.
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Post by nella on Nov 15, 2006 12:23:58 GMT -5
Um, what exactly is your point? Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding you, but whatever else Saddam might be, he's not the devil. Therefore we don't rejoice at his death. Oh, of course he is not the devil! I know there was a point to that passage, but it was a long time ago that I posted. After re-thinking the passage and trying to discover why I posted it, I guess my points were these. 1. God's grace is amazing! We all could have gone in the direction Saddam did if it were not for the grace of God. 2. We really do need to execute justice on Saddam, but remember the evil that he stood for. I think it was Martin Luther that said something to the effect of "Hate cannot erase hate; only love can." I think that this passage takes our focus off the physical and reminds us that we are all engaged in a battle of worldviews: the worldview that the devil is trying to sell, and the worldview promoted by the Bible. Hope this explains what I meant. |
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Post by heartofgold on Nov 16, 2006 12:48:49 GMT -5
Um, what exactly is your point? Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding you, but whatever else Saddam might be, he's not the devil. Therefore we don't rejoice at his death. Oh, of course he is not the devil! I know there was a point to that passage, but it was a long time ago that I posted. After re-thinking the passage and trying to discover why I posted it, I guess my points were these. 1. God's grace is amazing! We all could have gone in the direction Saddam did if it were not for the grace of God. 2. We really do need to execute justice on Saddam, but remember the evil that he stood for. I think it was Martin Luther that said something to the effect of "Hate cannot erase hate; only love can." I think that this passage takes our focus off the physical and reminds us that we are all engaged in a battle of worldviews: the worldview that the devil is trying to sell, and the worldview promoted by the Bible. Hope this explains what I meant. Ah, OK. That makes more sense. ;D |
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LilyJ
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Dedication and obsession go hand in hand sometimes....
Posts: 188
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Post by LilyJ on Nov 16, 2006 20:48:07 GMT -5
I think that not only should we NOT take pleasure in killing because we're Christians, but from a poitical stadpoint as well. THink about it... Saddam Hussien enjoyed killing people. What should we be guilty of the same thing? Personally, I'm against the death penalty, but I realize that in this case it's probably the safest thing to do. But that doesn't mean I'm gonna stand there and cheer when they hang him. In fact, if I had to watch it, I would probably throw up. (There's the future doctor in me who can't stand to see a life ended... even if it's the life of the biggest s.o.b. to ever fall into our clutches.) Yes, I am radically pro-life. The only matter where I'm radically right-wing, I'm afraid.  lol |
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Post by gynovia on Nov 16, 2006 21:28:03 GMT -5
I think that not only should we NOT take pleasure in killing because we're Christians, but from a poitical stadpoint as well. THink about it... Saddam Hussien enjoyed killing people. What should we be guilty of the same thing? Personally, I'm against the death penalty, but I realize that in this case it's probably the safest thing to do. But that doesn't mean I'm gonna stand there and cheer when they hang him. In fact, if I had to watch it, I would probably throw up. (There's the future doctor in me who can't stand to see a life ended... even if it's the life of the biggest s.o.b. to ever fall into our clutches.) Yes, I am radically pro-life. The only matter where I'm radically right-wing, I'm afraid. lol well, in my opinion, the death penalty is a no-brainer. I am not happy to see him die, but justice has to be done. |
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steelsheenyeahtoolazy
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Post by steelsheenyeahtoolazy on Nov 17, 2006 15:03:06 GMT -5
Hold it.
They're hanging the man?
Wow.
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torc
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Post by torc on Nov 17, 2006 18:23:44 GMT -5
yes he is.
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Post by steelsheen on Nov 17, 2006 20:29:00 GMT -5
All right- Saddam Hussein is going to be hung by the neck until dead?
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Post by New Titania (TD) on Nov 17, 2006 21:44:24 GMT -5
Well, hanging actually doesn't take a long time. Since we're on the subject, I read an article in the Tulsa World (it's Oklahoma's centinneal (SP?) so they're doing historic articles), and they were talking about some criminal who broke Lindbergh's Law and got hung. Only problem--the guys didn't set it up right and he didn't die of hanging...he died by getting strangled with the rope and eventually struggling and suffocating to death.
Anyways, God has given the government authority to "use the knife" as the Bible says (if you want me to look up the passage, I will). Saddam killed people, justice dictates that he be killed for his crime.
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LilyJ
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Dedication and obsession go hand in hand sometimes....
Posts: 188
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Post by LilyJ on Nov 17, 2006 23:35:51 GMT -5
Yes, but that doesn't mean we should enjoy it. That would make us no better than him.
I've just never agreed that we would have the authority to take someone's God-given life. Imprison them, sure, but not kill.
But show me scripture that proves otherwise and I will keep my mouth shut.
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Post by steelsheen on Nov 18, 2006 10:14:49 GMT -5
If you tie a hard knot, the neck is broken. Noose knot, you're strangled.
Neniel- read Leviticus for all the scripture you'll ever need for the death penalty.
As a general once said 'It's for God to forgive them- it's for me to arrange the meeting.'
And no, if Saddam is indeed to be hung (no one has answered that satisfactorily yet) I will not watch it. That is sick.
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Post by New Titania (TD) on Nov 21, 2006 10:51:28 GMT -5
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Post by Geberia on Nov 21, 2006 16:20:42 GMT -5
Well, I am not going to watch it either, but I am....how should I put it? Not sad that this is his punishment. I believe, Nen, that the death penalthy is Biblical. Also I believe that if Sadam had done the evil crimes he did to part of your family you would have him killed as well. That is not to say you have to be there and make a celebration of it. I personally pray that he will be saved before he dies.
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Post by gynovia on Nov 21, 2006 17:26:06 GMT -5
Well, hanging actually doesn't take a long time. Since we're on the subject, I read an article in the Tulsa World (it's Oklahoma's centinneal (SP?) so they're doing historic articles), and they were talking about some criminal who broke Lindbergh's Law and got hung. Only problem--the guys didn't set it up right and he didn't die of hanging...he died by getting strangled with the rope and eventually struggling and suffocating to death. uh wow. interesting topic here! ;D |
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LilyJ
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Dedication and obsession go hand in hand sometimes....
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Post by LilyJ on Nov 21, 2006 22:13:37 GMT -5
I can't really say what I would do, obviously, since I can't even imagine... but I also think that life imprisonment is a worse punishment than death, and more effective.
My issue with the death penalty: in Levitius, there are situations in which God specifically COMMANDED that people be put to death - mainly adultery. However:
The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery, and having set her in the center of the court, they said to Him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act. Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women; what then do You say?" They were saying this, testing Him, so that they might have grounds for accusing Him. But Jesus stooped down and with His finger wrote on the ground. But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." Again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. When they heard it, they began to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones, and He was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the center of the court. Straightening up, Jesus said to her, "Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?" She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "I do not condemn you, either. Go, from now on sin no more." (John 8:3-11)
The way I see it, who are we to judge what others have done as worthy of death? That's up to God and God alone. And last I know, He did NOT write the Constitution.
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Post by heartofgold on Nov 21, 2006 22:43:30 GMT -5
I'm gonna try and make things a little more clear here (I notice I rarely succeed when I do this).
I'm undecided on the Penalty. I can see the arguments for both sides, but I don't think one of them makes more sense than the other. The biggest question you have to ask is what is the legal system for? Is it justice, or is it protection for society? Nobody really appears to know, I've noticed, which might explain why this is such a big issue. If its purpose is justice, than the Penalty makes some sense, but if its just protection from society, you lock 'em up for life.
Of course, the other thing you have to take into account here is the fact that the legal system doesn't work all the time. I had a priest (it was an Anglican church, so I guess he would have been a priest) at an old church go to prison over a money issue for 3 months, his wife went for three years. The people who got them into this whole mess weren't even prosecuted (its a long story, but just realise this priest was one of the greatest guy's I've ever known, he did what the people told him and went to prison for it). The priest at my current church has perhaps a more relevant story. He had (note the had) a nephew who's mom died when he was 18. He got mixed up in , gangs, what-have-you, and was at a supermarket where somebody was shot and killed. Now, nobody could prove who killed this person, so they did it the safe way and killed all three. That doesn't work people. Both my parents being lawyers, you learn things about the legal system. An argument may be made (which I think has much merit) that someones life is too big a gamble for our legal system.
As for the Israelites having the Penalty, you have to realize that they were a nomadic civilization. They had no prisons to send these people. There was only so much you could do to them.
And no, I'm not just saying this because I'm Catholic and I have too. John Paul II didn't like it because it added to his "culture of " view of America (and I think he had a very legitimate point, he was certainly right about abortion). But as a Catholic you are allowed to support the Penalty.
Oh, and if my web blocker is blocking out choice words, just realize its not my fault.
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LilyJ
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Dedication and obsession go hand in hand sometimes....
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Post by LilyJ on Nov 24, 2006 13:16:42 GMT -5
I'm confused... are you saying it's too big of a gamle to deicde "guilty/not guilty," or it's too big of a gamble to keep them alive?
Excellent point! I didn't even think of that!!!
The U.S. government is meant to protect and guide the people, not "rule" them in a feudal sense. The legal system, I'd imagine, is the same way, isn't it? We don't pick judicial representatives to randomly kill bad guys, we pick them to protect us... or at least, that's how I see it.
I'll say it once again... I believe justice should be left up to God and God alone, while it's up to us only to protect society. But of course, that's just my humble and opinionated... er... opinion.
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Post by nella on Nov 24, 2006 21:49:49 GMT -5
There is a passage that talks about God selecting our leaders divinely. There is a purpose for every law that our country has, and God has let it happen for a reason. Not to get off topic, but that does not mean that we should break biblical laws just because something is legalized in America. I personally could not live with the knowledge that I had killed someone intentionally. Sadaam has killed many people for less reasons than he is being killed without thinking twice about it. Clearly, he deserves what he got, but I would not want to be a judge that ruled against him, or his executioner. If I were placed in a situation like that, I think I would have also ruled for him to die, but I'm not planning on going into law, so I suppose I don't have to worry about that.
~Nella
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LilyJ
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Dedication and obsession go hand in hand sometimes....
Posts: 188
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Post by LilyJ on Nov 24, 2006 22:40:58 GMT -5
Well, I'd love to see some divine intervention in the upcoming elecetion, then.... Sorry. There's that cynicism coming through again. |
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lol
