The End-times Debate

[falklands]

Heartofgold asked if he should make one, but I decided to make it instead. The topic is what it says. Apparently we have some here who do not believe in the Rapture. I, on the other hand, do believe in a lengthy succession of end-times events. Let the games begin!

[heartofgold]

OK, um, I don't believe in the rapture, prove me wrong.

[Geberia]

A few verses from 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18. " For the LORD himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: The we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the LORD in the air: and so shall we ever be with the LORD. Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

This tells of a definite rapture. Granted, we do not know the time this is going to take place, no one can know that. But there is going to be a rapture of the Christians from off this earth.

Here are some of Chist's words dealing with the rapture - Matthew 24:36-42: "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels in heaven, but my father only. But as the days of Noe (Noah) were, so shall also the coming of the son of man be. For in the days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marraige, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not untilt he flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the son of man be. There shall be two in the field; the one shall be taken, the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill, the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your LORD doth come."

This day will come as a "thief in the night." We don't know the time when the dead in Christ will rise, then the ones who remain in Chirist taken up. But we for sure know that it will happen.

[heartofgold]

A few verses from 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18. " For the LORD himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: The we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the LORD in the air: and so shall we ever be with the LORD. Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

This tells of a definite rapture. Granted, we do not know the time this is going to take place, no one can know that. But there is going to be a rapture of the Christians from off this earth.

Well, if rapture just means rising in the air, yea, I'll take that. What I'm really talking about is the seven years of tribulation and Left Behind and all that. But sure, when Christ comes, we'll go up to meet him. Sounds good.

Here are some of Chist's words dealing with the rapture - Matthew 24:36-42: "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels in heaven, but my father only.

Exactly. Which makes me think there isn't a rapture. If all the Christian's just vanish, than the people who are converted during the tribulation will know exactly when Christ is coming. Seven years.

But as the days of Noe (Noah) were, so shall also the coming of the son of man be. For in the days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marraige, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not untilt he flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the son of man be. There shall be two in the field; the one shall be taken, the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill, the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your LORD doth come."

Now this is interesting. Lets think back to Noah. He builds an ark, big flood, everyone dies, he comes out, looks around, and guess what. He's LEFT BEHIND. THE GOOD GUYS ARE LEFT BEHIND. Somewhere else it talks about the end times being like the days of Lot. Same story. Everyone burns, the good guys are left behind.

This day will come as a "thief in the night." We don't know the time when the dead in Christ will rise, then the ones who remain in Chirist taken up. But we for sure know that it will happen.

Oh, I'm not denying there's going to be a second coming. I just don't think we're going to have seven years and all that. But yea, we don't know when the second coming comes around. When it does, the good guys will go up, the bad guys won't. End of story.

[Armany]

heartofgold said:

Exactly. Which makes me think there isn't a rapture. If all the Christian's just vanish, than the people who are converted during the tribulation will know exactly when Christ is coming. Seven years.

...

Oh, I'm not denying there's going to be a second coming. I just don't think we're going to have seven years and all that. But yea, we don't know when the second coming comes around. When it does, the good guys will go up, the bad guys won't. End of story.

I was under the impression that the Second Coming was the Rapture. If that's so, then Jesus will come, believers will be caught up (in a spiritual sense), then the world will endure seven years of literal Hell. That's how I've always taken it.

Not that this is a really big issue. We all know who (or should I say Who) has got the last laugh, so all the other stuff that takes place from now until eternity is just in preparation for that moment in time when we do see Christ returning.

[heartofgold]

I was under the impression that the Second Coming was the Rapture. If that's so, then Jesus will come, believers will be caught up (in a spiritual sense), then the world will endure seven years of literal Hell. That's how I've always taken it.

But why is there seven years of literal hell? Where did that come from? I still agree that we go up in the air, great. But where does seven years and Left Behind and all that stuff fit in?

[Armany]

heartofgold said:

I was under the impression that the Second Coming was the Rapture. If that's so, then Jesus will come, believers will be caught up (in a spiritual sense), then the world will endure seven years of literal Hell. That's how I've always taken it.

But why is there seven years of literal hell? Where did that come from? I still agree that we go up in the air, great. But where does seven years and Left Behind and all that stuff fit in?

The book of Daniel. Chapter 9, verse 20-27:

20 While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel and making my request to the LORD my God for his holy hill- 21 while I was still in prayer, Gabriel, the man I had seen in the earlier vision, came to me in swift flight about the time of the evening sacrifice. 22 He instructed me and said to me, "Daniel, I have now come to give you insight and understanding. 23 As soon as you began to pray, an answer was given, which I have come to tell you, for you are highly esteemed. Therefore, consider the message and understand the vision:
24 "Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.

25 "Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

[Armany]

Also, Left Behind is a fictional account, sometimes dramatized, of the Tribulation. Don't take it as gospel.

[gynovia]

I believe TD did a sermon on the end times. Its in the Church Service thing.

[heartofgold]

The book of Daniel. Chapter 9, verse 20-27:

Some of this I don't have a big problem with. It doesn't go against Church doctrine to say there will be seven years of tribulation and an antichrist and all that. Some catholics go for that too.

What I do have a problem with is all the Christian's vanishing. Where does that and Hal Lindsy ;D come in (since you don't like Left Behind ).

I believe TD did a sermon on the end times. Its in the Church Service thing.

Yea I read it. Nice sermon. Didn't agree with anything he said but it was well done.

[Geberia]

heartofgold said:

The book of Daniel. Chapter 9, verse 20-27:

Some of this I don't have a big problem with. It doesn't go against Church doctrine to say there will be seven years of tribulation and an antichrist and all that. Some catholics go for that too.

What I do have a problem with is all the Christian's vanishing. Where does that and Hal Lindsy ;D come in (since you don't like Left Behind ).

I just typed the verses to you. Jesus says that one will be taken, another one left. Paul says that we which are saved will be caught up together in the clouds with Jesus. Pretty simple! Everyone who is truly saved will be raptured. And heartofgold, you should really base your beliefs on more of what the Bible says rather than the church. If you don't believe in the rapture, please give some verses to prove it is not so.

[heartofgold]

Jesus says that one will be taken, another one left.

Like I said, this verse doesn't make any sense that way. In the days of Noah, the good guys were left behind while the bad guys drowned. There's a verse for you. I think that's what its saying. The end of the world comes, the bad guys burn, the good guys are left behind to experience all the good stuff.

Paul says that we which are saved will be caught up together in the clouds with Jesus. Pretty simple!

Great, I'm sure at the end we'll all go up. But where does it say all the Christian's vanish before the end?

And heartofgold, you should really base your beliefs on more of what the Bible says rather than the church.

Except the church bases what it believes on the bible. The, "just read the bible how you want to read it" didn't work. Now Corinthians, where Paul stresses unity, is completely ignored. The church makes it easier. They tell you how to interpret it. And its the same way they told us to interpret it 2000 years ago when they wrote it.

If you don't believe in the rapture, please give some verses to prove it is not so.

Actually, I'm using the lack of verses for it. Quite frankly, there aren't any clear-cut verses against it. But there aren't any clear-cut verses for it either.

[Armany]

heartofgold said:

What I do have a problem with is all the Christian's vanishing. Where does that and Hal Lindsy ;D come in (since you don't like Left Behind )

I actually do like Left Behind. ;D I was just saying that Left Behind isn't the end-all guide to the Tribulation. I've heard of Hal Lindsy, but I've never really read anything about him, so I can't say anything about his ideas.

The Noah-part of Jesus' End-Times/Matthew 24 sermon makes me think that a rapture may occur. Noah was granted a safe-haven literally in the eye of the storm. He didn't have to drown like all the rest, and he didn't have to endure God's judgement. Noah got to watch everything from the Ark.

[heartofgold]

I actually do like Left Behind. ;D I was just saying that Left Behind isn't the end-all guide to the Tribulation.

I know. I just haven't heard of any rapture books beside that one ;D.

I've heard of Hal Lindsy, but I've never really read anything about him, so I can't say anything about his ideas.

Let me put it this way. According to him, we're all dead. The world was supposed to end in the 80s (though some argue it did ).

The Noah-part of Jesus' End-Times/Matthew 24 sermon makes me think that a rapture may occur. Noah was granted a safe-haven literally in the eye of the storm. He didn't have to drown like all the rest,

Which is what I'm saying. The second coming is going to be great for some people, and not so great for others. But everyone else drowns, Noah goes up with the tide. That's what happens to Christian's. They go up with the tide. But I don't see any reason to believe this is all going to happen before the second coming.

and he didn't have to endure God's judgement.

Well, if by judgement you mean punisment, you're right. But everyone's gotta face judgement day.

[Triphus (Titanian)]

heartofgold said:

The world was supposed to end in the 80s (though some argue it did ).

lol!!!!! ;D ;D ;D That needs to become a famous quote!

[heartofgold]

lol!!!!! ;D ;D ;D That needs to become a famous quote!

No problem, on my sig in goes! Then later, when I'm running for president of the world, I'll let it come out. It can go in books like, "the 637 best things anyone ever said" (real book).

[falklands]

Except the church bases what it believes on the bible. The, "just read the bible how you want to read it" didn't work. Now Corinthians, where Paul stresses unity, is completely ignored. The church makes it easier. They tell you how to interpret it. And its the same way they told us to interpret it 2000 years ago when they wrote it.

I know this is redundant to the present debate, but all the same...

When I find that the Catholic church "interprets" the Bible on flawed evidence, brings in unbiblical doctrine, and is rather un-literal with its interpretation, then I begin to doubt that its doctrine is completely right (example: Purgatory. Ignoring the issues of salvation and sanctification, there is no direct reference to Purgatory at all in the Bible. There are some passages which might be construed to imply that it just might possibly maybe exist. And those are very debatable.) If some what the Catholics say blatantly disagrees with some of Biblical doctrine, then I can say that we shouldn't just take in their teachings as gospel. Of course, you'll be likely to contest that, but let's do that in the Christianity & Catholicism thread, shall we?

[Siko Michael]

I hate to break your guys hearts but the tribulation is 3.5 yrs not 7yrs...7yrs is a mis-calculation by the church because in the bible it refers to two different events that result in X amount of days or seven yrs but the tribulation is X amount of days resulting in 3.5yrs. I will have to find the scripture to get a exact count on the days of the tribulation.

siko

ADDITION:

there is also a site that believes that a mistranslation from hebrew to english results in the tribulation actually being 483yrs...check it out. www.gotquestions.org/tribulation.html

[Siko Michael]

Scriptures, refering to 3.5yrs.

Rev 11:2

BUT THE COURT THAT IS WITHOUT THE TEMPLE LEAVE OUT, AND MEASURE IT NOT; FOR IT IS GIVEN UNTO THE GENTILES: AND THE HOLY CITY SHALL THEY TREAD UNDER FOOT FORTY AND TWO MONTHS

Rev 13:5

AND POWER WAS GIVEN UNTO HIM (unto the Antichrist) TO CONTINUE FORTY AND TWO MONTHS.

Rev 11:3

AND THEY SHALL PROPHESY A THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED AND THREESCORE DAYS.

Rev 12:6

AND THE WOMAN FLED INTO THE WILDERNESS, WHERE SHE HATH A PLACE PREPARED OF GOD, THAT THEY SHOULD FEED HER THERE A THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED AND THREESCORE DAYS.

and the last verse has a woman of god living during the tribulation therefore disproving the raputure before the tribulation.

[heartofgold]

and the last verse has a woman of god living during the tribulation therefore disproving the raputure before the tribulation.

Wow, does this mean someone agrees with me ?

Actually, I'm not sold on the idea of any tribulation. But in the same way I'm not sold on 24 hour days. Its possible, and I don't care enough to formulate an opinion.

Like I said. My only problem with this whole thing is the Christian's vanishing before the second coming.

Of course, you'll be likely to contest that, but let's do that in the Christianity & Catholicism thread, shall we?

OK.

[Siko Michael]

well, i dont believe in a rapture before the tribulation, but it could accure afterwards but then after the tribulation there is no point for a rapture.

siko

[Armany]

chickenwingmajor said:

and the last verse has a woman of god living during the tribulation therefore disproving the raputure before the tribulation.

Many end-times "gurus" or scholars or experts or, as some here may think, quacks ;D (though I'd have to disagree), including Tim LaHaye, believe that people can be saved during the Tribulation after the Rapture. Give me one reason why they can't be, assuming there is a Rapture.

Heartofgold,

On the Hal Lindsy thing, I guess he's wrong on his theory then, eh? ;D As Jesus said, "no man knows the day nor the hour."

[falklands]

Of course, Jesus' statement doesn't apply to the Jehovah's Witnesses ;D

[Siko Michael]

Of course, Jesus' statement doesn't apply to the Jehovah's Witnesses

HAHAHA.....

Give me one reason why they can't be, assuming there is a Rapture.

Well, lets see the bible doesnt not use the word "rapture" anywhere and if u do find it in the bible plez let me know

siko

[drowelves]

Practically speaking, if a rapture takes place, (and I believe in the rapture), there will definately be a tribulation. Think for a moment of the chaos that would cause. Governments would collapse. 1/3 of the earths population gone in an instant. That would cause some havoc.

Siko you are right but about the last half of the tribulation. I will have to look up the scriptures, but from my own reading of Revelation, the tribulation is broken up into two parts, 3.5 yrs a piece. The first 3.5 years is the recovery from the rapture where the Anti-Christ comes to power and etablishes a one world government, and everything is hunky dory. The last 3.5 years is where he brings hell on earth.