The End-times Debate

[Armany]

chickenwingmajor said:

Well, lets see the bible doesnt not use the word "rapture" anywhere and if u do find it in the bible plez let me know

siko

That's a completely irrelevant issue in reference to my question. Theoretically, if a Rapture occurred, do you believe that people could be saved during the Tribulation?

[Geberia]

I do. I mean, surely there would be one lost person out there who would recognize that what had just taken place was the rapture, and that the Bible is true, and be saved!

[Aslan the Great Lion]

Well it does say that there are 100,000 some peolple who are saved. I believe many people will become Christians in the End Times, but they will be faced with hardships and it will be harder to become a Christian.

[falklands]

And when Jesus finally comes in glory (this would be after the Rapture, assuming it exists), Joel 2:32 says, "and on that day anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved".

[Armany]

Yep. That's what I've always thought.

[awaz]

rrap said:

Well it does say that there are 100,000 some people who are saved. I believe many people will become Christians in the End Times, but they will be faced with hardships and it will be harder to become a Christian.

I don't think it will be harder to become a Christian, I think it will look much less appealing to the masses, and that Christians will be persecuted. And it will be harder to be a faithful Christian. Or want to become a Christian.

[heartofgold]

I have a question though. Everyone appears to be assuming the rapture exists. Why? I haven't got any evidence for it yet. All the rest of this stuff is great, but why are we all assuming the rapture exists?

Just to sorda get this thing shook up again ("I'm all shook up whoao...").

[awaz]

1st Thessalonians 4:16 13 Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.

1 Corinthians 15:52 50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

[falklands]

I'm now in a middle-ground here. I believe what those Bible quotes say, and that we will be caught up in the clouds when Jesus comes, but I don't believe that He is going to rapture the church before that "Day". Some people (like Tim LaHaye) think that Jesus will have a half-return, not really coming back but taking his church up with him in the clouds seven years before he really comes back. I don't think there's adequate Scriptural proof for that. But I think that before they Day, there will be tribulation on the earth, and that assuming it's going to happen in our lifetimes, we ourselves might be around to see that tribulation. But the church will be spared the wrath of God. Anyone agree with me?

[heartofgold]

falklands said:

I'm now in a middle-ground here. I believe what those Bible quotes say, and that we will be caught up in the clouds when Jesus comes, but I don't believe that He is going to rapture the church before that "Day". Some people (like Tim LaHaye) think that Jesus will have a half-return, not really coming back but taking his church up with him in the clouds seven years before he really comes back. I don't think there's adequate Scriptural proof for that. But I think that before they Day, there will be tribulation on the earth, and that assuming it's going to happen in our lifetimes, we ourselves might be around to see that tribulation. But the church will be spared the wrath of God. Anyone agree with me?

Man, I am good. I assume this was all me and not... you're own... Man, I'm depressed.

Well, some issues I quite frankly don't care enough to formulate an opinion. Maybe there's a tribulation. I frankly doubt it, but that's just me and its entirely possible. I also am not one of the people who thinks that it's going to happen soon. It might, but I don't think its more likely than it happening 30 billion years from now. So basically, my only view on the end times is there isn't a rapture. So yea, I sorda agree with you .

[falklands]

heartofgold said:

Man, I am good. I assume this was all me and not... you're own... Man, I'm depressed.

Take heart in the fact that we are all unique, just like everyone else ;D

Well, some issues I quite frankly don't care enough to formulate an opinion. Maybe there's a tribulation. I frankly doubt it, but that's just me and its entirely possible. I also am not one of the people who thinks that it's going to happen soon. It might, but I don't think its more likely than it happening 30 billion years from now. So basically, my only view on the end times is there isn't a rapture. So yea, I sorda agree with you .

I believe the Rapture will happen. Look at Awaz's bible quotes! That's what we call the Rapture. They are one and the same. Being caught up in the clouds with Jesus is what we call the Rapture. And yes, it will happen. And I think that the New Testament says somewhere that Jesus will come when all the nations have heard the Gospel. So yes, I think he might be coming in my lifetime. Then again, he might not.

[heartofgold]

Oh, to clear up a little misunderstanding. When I say rapture, I mean all the Christians (not counting the Catholics of course ) go up before the second coming. Sure, we'll all go up into the clouds, I'm not going to deny that, but "rapture" is something I hear all the time and it usually comes from people who think its going to happen before the second coming.

Yes, you're right. I am sorry my good man. Rapture probably doesn't mean that (but years of life has made me bitter and cynical ).

[falklands]

heartofgold said:

Yes, you're right. I am sorry my good man. Rapture probably doesn't mean that (but years of life has made me bitter and cynical ).

I wonder what contributed to the bitterness when you were an infant...did the baptismal font have a little too much alkali? ;D

[heartofgold]

I wonder what contributed to the bitterness when you were an infant...did the baptismal font have a little too much alkali? ;D

Oh I was quite a happy infant I'm told. But alas, that could not last in today's world (you know, I think I'm supposed to be sixty-something before I'm supposed to say this. Man, I'm depressed).

[falklands]

heartofgold said:

Oh I was quite a happy infant I'm told. But alas, that could not last in today's world (you know, I think I'm supposed to be sixty-something before I'm supposed to say this. Man, I'm depressed).

Seeing as you're only 13, I really do think that baptismal font had some wierd chemical in it...

[heartofgold]

Seeing as you're only 13, I really do think that baptismal font had some wierd chemical in it...

Well seeing as you're only 925 I would say, oh wait...

Yea, the baptismal font probably did have something weird in it. It was Lutheran .

[Aslan the Great Lion]

falklands said:

I'm now in a middle-ground here. I believe what those Bible quotes say, and that we will be caught up in the clouds when Jesus comes, but I don't believe that He is going to rapture the church before that "Day". Some people (like Tim LaHaye) think that Jesus will have a half-return, not really coming back but taking his church up with him in the clouds seven years before he really comes back. I don't think there's adequate Scriptural proof for that. But I think that before they Day, there will be tribulation on the earth, and that assuming it's going to happen in our lifetimes, we ourselves might be around to see that tribulation. But the church will be spared the wrath of God. Anyone agree with me?

I am sorry, but I don't. Christians will be spared God's wrath by being taken to heaven before the Tribulation.

[falklands]

rrap said:

I am sorry, but I don't. Christians will be spared God's wrath by being taken to heaven before the Tribulation.

...But where is the biblical proof that we Christ will meet us in the clouds, in sort of an "almost-return", then actually coming back seven years later? In 1 Thessalonians 4 (awaz's quote), it says that the Lord himself will come down from heaven (ensuing events occur). But in context it is talking about the Day of the Lord (chapter 5). That day is no different from his glorious appearing. As for 1 Corinthians 15, there is no evidence that it is any different from the Day of the Lord. You say Christians will be spared God's wrath by being caught up to heaven before the Tribulation? Then what about that Christians that repent after the Rapture? Do they suffer the wrath of God, even though, after repenting, "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him," (Rom. 5:9). It simply follows that Christians, although enduring persecution from non-believers in the End Times, will be spared God's wrath while the rest of the Earth endures tribulation.

[heartofgold]

What Falklands said.

Actually, though, this brings up the point (sorda anyway), that if God were to spare Christian the tribulation, there wouldn't be one (assuming there isn't a rapture, which I'm assuming).

But that was just my random point. I definitely don't have a very big problem with the tribulation, I'm just not sold on it. And its not going to affect anyone's salvation so I'm not going to worry about it.

[falklands]

This might not explain everything, but take Mark 13:

"5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:

6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.

8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.

9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.

13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:

16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.

17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.

19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect’s sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:

22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:

29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.

30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

34 For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the thingycrowing, or in the morning:

36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.

37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch."

In verse 19 the word "affliction" in the Greek is "thlipsis", meaning anguish, persecution, tribulation, trouble". I am not myself completely sure on the whole end-times doctrine, but looking at the Bible clears some things up.

[heartofgold]

Well, like I said, its possible.

You have to realize that a lot of this is open for interpretation and there are a lot of ways to interpret it. But the tribulation isn't something I especially want to debate since I don't really care if you believe in it or not (not to sound like I don't care, its just that, well, I don't).

[Armany]

So you do indeed aim to sound like you don't care, don't you? *casts suspicious look* ;D

[awaz]

In the year since I posted here I have uncovered new evidence and have switched sides.

The rise in belief in the rapture is attributed to a 15-year old Scottish-Irish girl named Margaret MacDonald, who in 1830 had a vision that was later published in 1861.

The popularization of the term is associated with teaching of John Nelson Darby, prominent among the Plymouth Brethren, and the rise of premillennialism and dispensationalism in English-speaking churches at the end of the 19th century. In 1908, the doctrine of the rapture was further popularized by an evangelist named William Eugene Blackstone, whose book, Jesus Is Coming, sold more than one million copies. The first known appearance of the theological use of the word "rapture" in print occurs with the Scofield Reference Bible of 1909.

[krinsim]

So exactly, what side are you on?