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Post by falklands on Jan 19, 2006 17:42:24 GMT -5
Once you truly give your heart to Christ, do you always remain saved no matter what happens? Or can you still reject God and have your faith crumble away, falling back into Satan's hands? Tell me what you think.
I believe that you can still fall away from Christianity, even after truly accepting Christ. This happens very, very infrequently, however, but the fact remains that it can happen. Jesus said that he can forgive any sin except the blaspheming of the Holy Spirit, which would be rejecting God. It happens, however.
What's your position?
Falklands
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Teckor
Full Member
.........what am I supposed to write? Something inspiring?
Posts: 154
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Post by Teckor on Jan 19, 2006 17:54:31 GMT -5
My opinion, is that no matter what happens, if your saved, your saved.
God will give you the strength, and comfort to carry on through even the toughest situations.
Rejecting God's gift of life would be the same thing as not having accepted it in the first place then, wouldn't it?
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torc
Full Member
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Post by torc on Jan 19, 2006 20:11:40 GMT -5
Yes, no matter what.
If soemone "totally rejects God" for real and is not jsut running off having fun against god, then I doubt he was saved in the first place.
Once you are saved, you are saved forever.
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Post by falklands on Jan 19, 2006 20:44:27 GMT -5
I don't like the excuse "he mustn't have been saved in the first place." There are people who have definitely been saved. There is no question about it. Before they fall, you wouldn't dare to think otherwise. But as soon as they reject God, you say "they weren't actually saved. They just looked like it. Hmmm...
For an example from the Bible, it talks about false messiahs who will deceive multitudes of unbelievers, and, if possible, the elect. You can still reject God. He might give you the strength, but you can still relent to the Devil. Of course, it doesn't happen that often. But it happens
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Post by Geberia on Jan 19, 2006 21:04:49 GMT -5
Nope, I believe that once you accpet God into your heart he's there to stay. You can ignore him and then things won't go well for you at the judgment when you're tried for what you did with your salvation.
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Post by falklands on Jan 19, 2006 21:16:36 GMT -5
If things don't go well for you, then that would mean you have lost your salvation. At the last judgment, if you have endured 'till the end, no matter what you have done before you will have no condemnation or judgment for your past sins (except rejecting God himself, of course).
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Post by Geberia on Jan 20, 2006 12:35:30 GMT -5
Well, I always like to use the comparison of a Father and a Son. Once you are born, that's it. You have one father. even if you hate him, even if you turn your back on him and deny him, even if you change your name, the fact is still there- you have a father.
Once we are born again, we are born into the kingdom of God, and "no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand (quoting Jesus)." We can do everything to get as far away from God as we can, but it still won't change the fact that we are born into the family of God and always will be.
And btw, I believe in two judgements, one that determines whether your name is in the Lamb's Book of Life, and another that determines your "works" as a Christian, if you were saved.
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Post by heartofgold on Jan 20, 2006 12:43:41 GMT -5
I'm here for you Falklands, you knew I'd come and I did! No, and I'll tell you why (in case you thought I wouldn't  ) For example, lets take Falklands. Now, we all know Falklands is a good Christian (or at least, we're assuming that). So here's Falklands ("hi Falklands"). But the other day I traveled through time with Michel J. Fox and discovered that Falklands is going to be a terrorist, and will end his life at the age of 34 in a suicide bomb attack in Wisconsin, destroying all the cheese  , and a few people too, but they don't matter as much as cheese . Now, is Falklands a Christian? According to you all he's not. Lets move this scenario to Teckor. Well, sorry Teckor but you just not a Christian. Same with Torc. This doesn't seem right. I think Falklands had his faith, then jumped ship. There's nothing stopping you from jumping overboard. Also, what about the parable of the sower? The seed that fell on the rock, "is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away." Here Jesus says exactly what I'm saying. Some people have the faith, but then, in time of tribulation or persecution, falls away. They jumped ship. Also, while yes, God will forgive almost any sin, you have to accept his forgiveness. I think more people reject that than you think (but I don't know, I haven't got statistics in front of me). |
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Post by falklands on Jan 20, 2006 13:05:55 GMT -5
Thanks, heartofgold! ;D
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Post by Siko Michael on Jan 20, 2006 13:35:20 GMT -5
i agree with this statement although i knew a man who said he got saved by the holy ghost around 40yrs and then turned his back on god and did some bad stuff. Later around 10yrs ago he said he tried to find the holy ghost and got nothing.....
siko
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Post by Armany on Jan 20, 2006 14:11:15 GMT -5
I think that salvation is "lose-able." HoG and Falklands have defended this point pretty thoroughly.
For those who say that a person that rejects God "was never really a Christian," I would have to ask you this: If your theory is correct, who's to say if anyone is really a Christian? Everyone, saved or not saved, has the capacity to commit any type of sin. That includes blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
The New Testament apostles warn Christians multiple times of the danger of "falling away." For example:
Why else would the writer of Hebrews warn people of the danger of falling away if they could not, indeed, "fall away?"
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Post by heartofgold on Jan 20, 2006 14:25:13 GMT -5
Here, I'll give you the specific verses.
Hebrews 3:12 "Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to FALL AWAY from the living God."
Hebrews 10:26-29 "For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?"
Here's some more stuff.
2 Timothy 2:12 "if we endure, we will also reign with him;
if we deny him, he also will deny us;"
2 Peter 2:20-21 "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them."
So there you have it. Biblical evidence for what Falklands and I (and now Armany) are saying.
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Post by Siko Michael on Jan 20, 2006 15:22:26 GMT -5
this could also be read as it is impossible for those who are enlightened, etc, ect to be brought back to repentence because they are crusifying the son of god again...anyway thats how i interpet it...
siko
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Post by Geberia on Jan 20, 2006 16:34:27 GMT -5
Whoa HoG ( we seriously need to get a new abbrevition for you!  ) and Armany....look at those verse you just quoted. 2 Timothy 2:12," If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us." The NEXT verse goes on to say, " If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful, he CANNOT deny himself." Obviously this is referring to people who are Christians and have Christ in them. Armany, those verses you quoted in Hebrews 6:4-6 are commonly used to "prove" that Christians can fall away, but the verses are taken our of context. The book of Hebrews was written to the Hebrew people ( and please understand, I'm not saying it's not for us or anyhting, just keep in mind that Paul is speaking to the Hebrew/Jewish people.) Paul is talking about the Jews here, and how they err by not accepting the new gift of Jesus Christ. He's saying that it's like they're crucifying him over again. The Jews were once God's poeple. They have tasted of the heavenly gifts, they were partakers of the Holy Ghost, wouldn't you agree? God has been very good to them, and he has shown their prophets the future and what is to come.....and yet they still reject him. They still believe that Jesus is yet to come and aroudn this period of time they were finding it hard to accept that Gentiles were in this plan. It's like they're saying, "No, the old ways and the law are better." in this they are shaming the son of God. Well, that's my take on this. |
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Post by gynovia on Jan 20, 2006 20:06:50 GMT -5
I'm of the crowd that believes you can't ever loose your salvation. Once you're in the family of God, you're always in the Family of God. True, down the road, you may reject him, or go your own way, but God would never leave you no matter how much you may "fall away" from him.
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Post by falklands on Jan 20, 2006 20:53:57 GMT -5
I'm of the crowd that believes you can't ever loose your salvation. Once you're in the family of God, you're always in the Family of God. True, down the road, you may reject him, or go your own way, but God would never leave you no matter how much you may "fall away" from him. How much God is in your life really depends on how much you let him into your life. You said yourself that you can reject him somewhere down the line. Yet rejecting God is the sin that God cannot forgive, because forgiveness depends on your acceptance of God and his salvation. Therefore it would infer that you can lose your salvation. Geberia hasn't touched upon those other verses that HoG quoted. Especially 2 Peter 2:20-21: "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them." |
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Post by Geberia on Jan 21, 2006 9:45:36 GMT -5
Geberia hasn't touched upon those other verses that HoG quoted. Especially 2 Peter 2:20-21: "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them." All right, since you wish Falk, I will touch upon that verse. I see no part in that verse where it means you lose your salvation. Sure it says that you reject God, and that the the last state is worse than the first. .I definatly believe that will be true if you are a Christian and reject God. Definalty things will go bad for you! But bad enough to lose your salvation? I'm sorry, I don't see that there. Look at the example of the Prodigal son. He was still that man's son, no matter what he did. Even if he ran away with half of his inheritance, spent it foolishly, and had to feed pigs to earn a living, he was still that man's son, and the Father still loved him. Even if that son had died w/o ever returning home to his father, he still would have been loved and he still would have been the Father's son. Oh, and what exactly is that refrence for the verse that you said rejecting God was a sin Jesus couldn't forgive? I'd like to look it up. |
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Post by gynovia on Jan 21, 2006 10:19:51 GMT -5
Yet rejecting God is the sin that God cannot forgive, because forgiveness depends on your acceptance of God and his salvation. Therefore it would infer that you can lose your salvation. really? I always though that God could forgive any sin. We've all rejected God some way or the other. mabey God has told you to share the gospel w/ someone and you've said "no" to God. -you rejected his voice. does that mean that you'll lose your salvation? IMHO, of course not! "and no man shall be able to pluck them out of my fathers hand" once your saved, nothing can separate you from the love of Christ. |
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Post by heartofgold on Jan 21, 2006 11:18:17 GMT -5
Um, I'm going to clear up a misconception here. Gynovia and Geberia seem to think we're saying that "if you reject God, God will totally reject you forever." No, God doesn't just reject you forever. That's a fact. There are lots of people who knew God, then lost him, then found him again. What we are saying is, if you believed in him, then rejected him for the rest of your life, your not going to heaven.
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Post by falklands on Jan 21, 2006 13:09:48 GMT -5
Matthew 12:31:
"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. "
The context here was that Jesus had been casting out demons by the power of the Holy Spirit. The Pharisees accused Jesus of doing it by the power of Satan. This equated the works of the Holy Spirit (basically God) with the devil's actions, which was blasphemy. By blaspheming the Holy Spirit you are rejecting and putting down God, and that is what cannot be forgiven. The Bible says it.
Besides, if you totally rejected God and stopped believing in Him, and if you somehow remained saved even though you did that, then God's justice would not be upheld and he would be making no distinction between those who accept Him and those who reject Him.
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awaz
Junior Member
Posts: 97
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Post by awaz on Jan 21, 2006 13:52:55 GMT -5
However if you ask for forgiveness you will be forgiven.
unless you drop dead after you say it you can be forgiven.
If you couldn't be, there would be hardly anyone who would go to heaven.
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Post by falklands on Jan 23, 2006 18:44:30 GMT -5
Also, in another of heartofgold's quotes:
Hebrews 10:26-29 "For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?"
If someone falls away and remains so when they die, they will receive an even worse punishment than the death endured by those who had profaned the law. This can be nought but hell.
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Post by Aslan the Great Lion on Jan 23, 2006 19:32:25 GMT -5
You can always say you are against God. Just think about Judas. He was with Jesus and followed him, but then he fell away to temptation. It is sad, but true, Christians can fall so far that they are no longer Christian.
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Post by Catoepia on Jan 23, 2006 19:37:56 GMT -5
True
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awaz
Junior Member
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Post by awaz on Jan 23, 2006 19:53:20 GMT -5
But, untill they die they can always come back to Chrict.
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)
, and a few people too, but they don't matter as much as cheese 
) and Armany....look at those verse you just quoted. 
