Once saved always saved?

[awaz]

Sorry, "Christ".

[falklands]

Just eliminate typos by clicking on the "modify" button on the top right-hand corner of the offending post. There's no need to amend your error by making another post.

[Geberia]

Unless of course you want to make the posts count go up ( looks in mirror at self)

I'm sorry guys I have to run but I'll rouch on this when I got more time.

[Armany]

geberia said:

Armany, those verses you quoted in Hebrews 6:4-6 are commonly used to "prove" that Christians can fall away, but the verses are taken our of context. The book of Hebrews was written to the Hebrew people ( and please understand, I'm not saying it's not for us or anyhting, just keep in mind that Paul is speaking to the Hebrew/Jewish people.) Paul is talking about the Jews here, and how they err by not accepting the new gift of Jesus Christ. He's saying that it's like they're crucifying him over again. The Jews were once God's poeple. They have tasted of the heavenly gifts, they were partakers of the Holy Ghost, wouldn't you agree? God has been very good to them, and he has shown their prophets the future and what is to come.....and yet they still reject him. They still believe that Jesus is yet to come and aroudn this period of time they were finding it hard to accept that Gentiles were in this plan. It's like they're saying, "No, the old ways and the law are better." in this they are shaming the son of God.

Well, that's my take on this.

Out of context, Gebreria? I think not.

This is straight from my pastor's sermon on this, paraphrased in my words due to an intense fear of plagarism (j/k, I just don't wanna use the exact words):

The writer of Hebrews constantly uses the phrase "fall away" in this passage. The Greek word for "fall" in this passage is parapipto- a word that, in the Greek, means "to fall away" or "to commit apostasy."

Apostasy is defined by my preacher from the message notes as "willfully rejecting truth; willfully renouncing Christ." During the time of the writing of Hebrews (I forget the range of time that was given in exact years), Roman authorities were beginning to introduce the Imperial Cult into Roman worship. This meant that everyone in the Empire, including Christians, had to burn some incense at an altar and say that "Caesar is Lord." This would constitute a full and complete renunciation of Christ and would therefore be apostasy.

This is what the author was writing of. He was writing it specifically to the Jewish Christians of that time, you are correct, but why wouldn't these passages apply to us in a universal context? Non-Jewish Christians faced the same persecution, and Paul surely wouldn't say to them, "I don't need to warn you guys about this falling away bit; it's those Jewish Christians that I need to threaten." No, I think Paul wrote this as a universal warning that applies to everyone and that supports my position that believers can lose their salvation.

[falklands]

Nice one Armany!

[gynovia]

Alrighty folks,
heres some verses i found - very refreshing. sooo, debate away! ( it appears i'm out numbered anyway )


John 6:37
All that the Father giveth me sall come to me; and in him that cometh to me i will in no wise cast out.

1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may beleive on the name of he Son of God.

Titus 1:2
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began.

John 10:28-29
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than them all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

I know, i know, i'm going to hammered for these, but to me me it seems so simple! ( ...and I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish....is there any doubt about this verse?) IMHO, ( )eternal life means just that! If we are God's children, we have eternal life. can you just loose that which is eternal? I think not.
anyway, thats my take.

[falklands]

gynovia said:

John 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and in him that cometh to me i will in no wise cast out.

Jesus is speaking here. He won't cast out anyone who comes to him, but he will cast out those who reject him. This is supported by 2 Timothy 2:12:

"if we endure, we will also reign with him;
if we deny him, he also will deny us;"

"We" is referring to the believers. If we do endure, God's promise of eternal life will be fulfilled. If we do not endure and deny him, then he will deny us.

1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may beleive on the name of he Son of God.

The same goes here. If you "believe on the Son of God", you will have eternal life. But if you stop believing, you will lose eternal life.

Hebrews 3:12: "Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God."

The author is speaking to his "brothers" - those already in Jesus Christ. He warns them lest some might have an "unbelieving heart". Clearly you can stop believing, hence leading you to fall away.

Titus 1:2
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began.

It's still your choice whether to accept God's promise. From my above verses you can still deny him after accepting his promise.

John 10:28-29
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than them all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

We might have got eternal life, but from my above verses (and this one down below), there still is a possiblity of yourself rejecting the promise. If we ourselves spurn God's mercy, then we will have wilfully rejected eternal life. The verse is saying here that no one can intervene to seperate you from the love of God. Quote:

2 Peter 2:20-21 "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them."

[Teckor]

Interesting... although, something which I noticed is that it is commonly mentioned about "rejecting Christ" or "denying". What I would like to put forward as a question is this, is it denying him after you've accepted, or rejecting him by not accepting?

Furthermore, 2 Peter 2:20-21 could be refering to using Jesus as a "lifeboat" but not fully accepting him. Unfortunately though, I don't have time right now to read the chapter and see what he was talking about before and after these verses.

[falklands]

teckor said:

Interesting... although, something which I noticed is that it is commonly mentioned about "rejecting Christ" or "denying". What I would like to put forward as a question is this, is it denying him after you've accepted, or rejecting him by not accepting?

Furthermore, 2 Peter 2:20-21 could be refering to using Jesus as a "lifeboat" but not fully accepting him. Unfortunately though, I don't have time right now to read the chapter and see what he was talking about before and after these verses.

I'll give the whole chapter of 2 Peter 2:

1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in d**nable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their d**nation slumbereth not.

4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)

9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;

14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man’s voice forbad the madness of the prophet.

17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.



Look at some revealing verses: verse 1 says:

"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in d**nable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction."

It is speaking of those who had already accepted Christ but denied him afterwards, to "bring upon themselves swift destruction."

Also verse 15:

Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray"

This means that they had already accepted Christ but went astray. Of course, there is verses 20-21.

[Teckor]

But did they "fall" away at all. Remeber, Judas was pretty bad throughout (stole money, etc.). Although, it does make you wonder... did he go to Heaven or to Hell? Remeber, he hung himself in despair b/c he realized what he had done and who Jesus really was.

This kinda ties into whether or not ppl of the old testament were saved by the sacrifices or by faith (not to get off topic as I fear I may be doing).

[falklands]

But did they "fall" away at all. Remeber, Judas was pretty bad throughout (stole money, etc.). Although, it does make you wonder... did he go to Heaven or to Hell? Remeber, he hung himself in despair b/c he realized what he had done and who Jesus really was.

"21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them."

They had already "known the way of righteousness". As for Judas, we can never really know. There's no need to debate about those things.

This kinda ties into whether or not ppl of the old testament were saved by the sacrifices or by faith (not to get off topic as I fear I may be doing).

Rom. 4:3, "For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."

Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."

Gal. 2:21, “I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”

[grerry]

You can stray away from God if you let the devils temptations get to you.

[awaz]

<quote>Judas hung himself in despair b/c he realized what he had done and who Jesus really was.</quote>

However Peter turned away also, but when he relized what he had done he came back and recived forgiveness (unlike Judas).

[falklands]

awaz said:

<quote>Judas hung himself in despair b/c he realized what he had done and who Jesus really was.</quote>

However Peter turned away also, but when he relized what he had done he came back and recived forgiveness (unlike Judas).

Exactly what point are you making?

[awaz]

Judas did not receive forgiveness (as far as we know) for his betrayal. Peter did. If you can fall away Judas probably most certainly did. peter realized he needed forgiveness, therefore he did not fall into the trap of depression and suicide that Judas did. Peter relized he needed forgiveness to be saved. Draw your own conclusions form this statement as to Once Saved Always Saved. It goes both ways.

[falklands]

awaz said:

Judas did not receive forgiveness (as far as we know) for his betrayal. Peter did. If you can fall away Judas probably most certainly did. peter realized he needed forgiveness, therefore he did not fall into the trap of depression and suicide that Judas did. Peter relized he needed forgiveness to be saved. Draw your own conclusions form this statement as to Once Saved Always Saved. It goes both ways.

Um, it certainly does not follow that if the doctrine that you can fall away is true, then Judas must have been saved. I contend that personal salvation is dependent on your acceptance of it. Judas never asked or accepted forgiveness, he just killed himself in remorse. There's a difference. But Peter asked for forgiveness, and so was forgave by Jesus. I still don't see how you can apply this to "Once saved always saved". It seems like an irrelevant issue to me. Besides, we, as brother (and sisters) in the Lord, can fall away, because Hebrews warns us against it. "Fall away" in the greek text is Apostasy, meaning to willfully reject God. If us brothers are warned against it, then it follows that we have the capacity to do it.

[heartofgold]

Once again, what we mean by being able to reject God is, well, being able to reject him. But that doesn't mean he'll reject us if we come back.

[falklands]

Yeah, "we". We the 0wnz0rz. J/K ;D

[heartofgold]

Yeah, "we". We the 0wnz0rz. J/K ;D

Ah the corruption of America. One post he uses "Centre," then next, he uses OwnzOrz. I'm moving to a custom built planet one of these days.

[falklands]

heartofgold said:

Ah the corruption of America. One post he uses "Centre," then next, he uses OwnzOrz. I'm moving to a custom built planet one of these days.

Um, "centre" is the original (and English) spelling of "center". Center is a corruption of Centre ;D. 0wnz0rz? Don't bother...

[heartofgold]

Um, "centre" is the original (and English) spelling of "center". Center is a corruption of Centre ;D. 0wnz0rz? Don't bother...

I know, that's why I like it so much. We should all say centre. The world would be a lot better place. I know it (insert feel good turn-desert-into-green-rolling-hillsides music here).

[falklands]

Is it just me, or do I see something looking like a tongue in heartofgold's cheek?

[heartofgold]

Is it just me, or do I see something looking like a tongue in heartofgold's cheek?

Oh no... I'm never sarcastic.... What on earth gives you the idea that I would be? Bitter Irony? Not me...

[falklands]

heartofgold said:

Oh no... I'm never sarcastic.... What on earth gives you the idea that I would be? Bitter Irony? Not me...

*Ushers the figure of heartofgold to the public* Well, there you go, folks...