Faith and Works from the Bible

[Geberia]

Faith Verses Works. The biggest topic/discussion subject on this forum. One that's caused many of us to separate, throw jabs at each other, and make, at times, real enemies. I would submit to you, that, once and for all, if it is possible, we should resolve this issue. If we cannot then I suggest it be dropped. I would also submit to you that we live by the rule of, " If you don't have anything good to say, don't say it at all." I would rather we all presented cases logically and clearly, instead of yelling, being sarcastic, or doing or saying things that you know will deliberatly provoke the other person to anger. ( I am not pointing out a specific person for this; I realize I have sometimes used these tactics myself!)

Having said this, I want to try to resolve this apparent contradiction in the Bible between James 2 and several other verses in Ephesians, Titus, and so forth. I believe we would all agree that Paul and James were both guided and directed by the same holy spirit as they wrote, and that their words are of equal value in the Bible. Why, then the apparent contradiction in James 2: 20 ( "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?") and Ephesians 2:8-9 ( For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.")?

I sumbit to you that we MUST find a way to reconcile these verses. Faith only people cannot only use Ephesians 2:8-9 ( or other verses) and ignore James 2, and likewise Works with Faith people cannot ignore Ephesians 2:8-9. Although we have tried looking at these verses from many different angles, I believe there are two important factors we have not examined yet, and if we have, we have not examined it thouroughly as we should.
1) Viewpoint
2) Context of Passage

I would like now to take a look at those verses in James which have been the main focus of our previous discussions. Starting from verse 21, I would like to, verse by verse, explain the passage so that is is reconciled with Paul's writings. I would ask you all to put on the viewpoint of our relationship to men. I ask that you consider that James is writing this from the perspective of a lost man ( not that James IS a lost man.) or a new Christian. James is not writing from the perspective of God, if he were, it would contradict with Pauls writings. Furthermore, the verses before verse 21 deal with our relationship to humans ( the verses on giving them raiment and saying "Being warm and filled.") But on to vs 21.... ( I ask you to read the verse in your Bible since I do not have time to type it up here.)

vs 21: Thus, Abrahams faith ( which is what brought him into favor with GOD, look at verse 23) wrought with his works to show US his faith in God. Picture yourself there with Abraham at the altar, not really knowing him. You can't read his mind or see his heart. He claims to know God, yet this is the most trying time of his life yet. He raises the knife, about to kill his only son. You see his lips form the words of a silent prayer. Then, suddenly, a loud voice from heaven!!! " Abraham, lay not thine hand upon the child." Wow - God has spoken and Issac is saved. You, as the spectator, see that Abrahams faith is real because of his works. He has shown you his faith BY his works ( verse 18). However, God Almighty regards our heart attitude MORE THAN our outward motions. vs 23 explains this. Abrahams belief ( in other words, his faith) was what brought him into righteousness with God. However, his outward works were what led our imaginary character by Abrahams side to have the same faith.

The justification spoken of in vs. 24 is not justification in God's sight, it is justification in man's sight. There is absolutly no doubt that Abraham was saved BEFORE he offered Issac upon the altar, but had anyone doubted his inner faith, they were now satisfied.
This clearly solves the Biblical contradiction when we say works and faith save us, then read Ephesians 2:8-9, which I shall quote again to bring to memory, " For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." This verse is describing our faith in GOD'S eyes.

There are other Bible verses to support what I have just said about works justifying us in mens sight. Look at where we just were in Ephesians 2. The next verse, 10, states,
"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." The keyword there is UNTO. We were created in Christ Jesus ( salvation) not BY good works, but UNTO ( in other words, for ) good works.

Let's look at Titus 3:4-8," But after that the kindess and love of God our Saviour toward men appeared, Not by works of righteousness, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost, which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; that being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (8)This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These are good and profitable unto men."
As is clearly stated, our works have not saved us in God's view ( vs. 4-7) However, once we are saved ( vs. 8, " That they which have believed in God .....) we SHOULD have and maintain good works. Why? ..."These things are good and profitable unto men..." It's not a matter of keeping our salvation, it's a matter of keeping our testimony before men.

In conclusion, only God can see our heart. God is pleased with a faithful heart. However, we are humans - we cannot read each others hearts. How can we truly tell if one is saved? The only thing we see as a spiritual indicator is outward works. When we see a person who claims to be a Christian and yet has no fruit, don't we naturally doubt his salvation? He is not justified by his works with us. However, a Christian who shows his faith by his works is justified by them in our sight.

Let us strive to show others our faith BY our good works, keeping a Christian testimony to all we meet. May God Almighty, who sees our hearts and cherishes our faith, help us in this task. God bless,
Geberia

[heartofgold]

OK, since I now have time to make a nice long post, I will.

being sarcastic...I am not pointing out a specific person for this

Yes you are ;D.

Having said this, I want to try to resolve this apparent contradiction in the Bible between James 2 and several other verses in Ephesians, Titus, and so forth. I believe we would all agree that Paul and James were both guided and directed by the same holy spirit as they wrote, and that their words are of equal value in the Bible. Why, then the apparent contradiction in James 2: 20 ( "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is ?") and Ephesians 2:8-9 ( For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.")?

But I still don't think there's even a contradiction here. You have to realize what I'm saying here though. I'm not saying you can work your way to heaven. You can't get to heaven without faith. But you have to work on your faith. Helping little old ladies across the street isn't to be done with the intent of getting "heaven points," but instead something we do because Jesus said "hey! Lets be nice to people for a change" (in a nutshell). You can't save yourself through works, but you have to work on your faith.

I would like now to take a look at those verses in James which have been the main focus of our previous discussions. Starting from verse 21, I would like to, verse by verse, explain the passage so that is is reconciled with Paul's writings. I would ask you all to put on the viewpoint of our relationship to men. I ask that you consider that James is writing this from the perspective of a lost man ( not that James IS a lost man.) or a new Christian. James is not writing from the perspective of God, if he were, it would contradict with Pauls writings. Furthermore, the verses before verse 21 deal with our relationship to humans ( the verses on giving them raiment and saying "Being warm and filled.") But on to vs 21.... ( I ask you to read the verse in your Bible since I do not have time to type it up here.)

I have absoutly no idea what this means. Perhaps I'm just slow, but is there any way you could explain your "point of view" thing again? And while your at it, could you should speak slower and use smaller words? ;D

vs 21: Thus, Abrahams faith ( which is what brought him into favor with GOD, look at verse 23) wrought with his works to show US his faith in God. Picture yourself there with Abraham at the altar, not really knowing him. You can't read his mind or see his heart. He claims to know God, yet this is the most trying time of his life yet. He raises the knife, about to kill his only son. You see his lips form the words of a silent prayer. Then, suddenly, a loud voice from heaven!!! " Abraham, lay not thine hand upon the child." Wow - God has spoken and Issac is saved. You, as the spectator, see that Abrahams faith is real because of his works. He has shown you his faith BY his works ( verse 18). However, God Almighty regards our heart attitude MORE THAN our outward motions. vs 23 explains this. Abrahams belief ( in other words, his faith) was what brought him into righteousness with God. However, his outward works were what led our imaginary character by Abrahams side to have the same faith.

OK but the problem with this is it still doesn't explain why James seems to think works are necessary. If all works are is a way to show people around you you're a Christian, but don't actually do anything for you, they aren't necessary. I mean, converting people is great (part of working on your salvation), but it isn't necessary for your salvation; which, unless your "point of view" small-essay actually explains something else, goes against what James says. Works can and are an outward sign of your faith, but you also do them for yourself to work on your salvation (if what I just said made any sense at all).

There are other Bible verses to support what I have just said about works justifying us in mens sight. Look at where we just were in Ephesians 2. The next verse, 10, states,
"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." The keyword there is UNTO. We were created in Christ Jesus ( salvation) not BY good works, but UNTO ( in other words, for ) good works.

Well, obviously. Good works didn't create us. But if we're brought into this world to do good works, we have to do them.

Let's look at Titus 3:4-8," But after that the kindess and love of God our Saviour toward men appeared, Not by works of righteousness, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost, which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; that being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (8)This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These are good and profitable unto men."
As is clearly stated, our works have not saved us in God's view ( vs. 4-7) However, once we are saved ( vs. 8, " That they which have believed in God .....) we SHOULD have and maintain good works. Why? ..."These things are good and profitable unto men..." It's not a matter of keeping our salvation, it's a matter of keeping our testimony before men.

Well first off, I think the biggest difference we have here is the word "saved." Frankly, I don't really believe in saved (to an extent). Saved makes it sound too much like a done deal. Hate to break it to the world, but it ain't (just ask the next Christian in Africa about to be killed by the natives). For me, salvation goes something like this (if it makes you fell any better, insert "asking Jesus to come into my heart" or, "accepting Christ as my Lord and Saviour" or whatever it is you do instead of Baptism).
You get baptised. Great, whoopie, lots of good times and good feelings or whatever, but is that it? No. You can lose your salvation, and the easiest way of doing that is by just letting it sit. So for the next 89 years you live (or whatever), you have to work on your salvation to avoid just letting it slide. That's why we, for example, go to mass (church, in case you don't know ), do little food things for the poor (although admittedly that might just be for the free chicken), etc.

I heard a great analogy for this once (I'd also like to note that the guy who used this teaches at Oral Roberts University, not exactly Catholic). Compare yourself to a tree. After baptism, well, there you are. Now what do we do with a tree (don't hurt yourself thinking about this), we water it, and put down fertiliser, and whatever other junk you do to a tree. Same with yourself. You take care yourself.
But now let me ask you a question, what if I just stuck a broom in the ground? Maybe I could, I dunno, throw some straws on it to make some branches, and, hey presto, tree. What's the difference? I mean, I've got my trunk, my branches, maybe I'll make myself some leaves, what's missing? Don't think too hard about this one either, the roots. Without the roots you can't grow in your faith. That's what works are, is the water and miracle grow that help your faith to grow (really really big!!!!)

Anyway, to sum up, I don't think that after you accept Jesus or whatever, your just "saved." Your on the right track, but your not officially saved. You gotta work at that (nothing is ever easy).

Anyway, sorry for disagreeing with you on this long and, may I say, very well written essay (better than the stuff my English teacher(s) write, don't feel too proud of yourself though, that's not difficult to achieve). Now maybe in ten days you post a really really really long message back (or just admit defeat ;D).

[nella]

Well, heartofgold, I agreed with most of the first part of what you said, but this is where I disagree.

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

Baptism is not the same as repenting from sin. Just as Noah escaping the flood via the ark (which was the outward demonstration of his faith in God), we show to the world our total recumbance on Jesus' atonement.

Geb, you hit the nail on the head. "Faith without works is like a song you can't sing; It's about as useless as a screen door on a submarine."* It isn't "what ever floats your boat" when it comes to Christianity. God has clearly written everything we need for life and godliness!

~Nella

*Rich Mullens

[LilyJ]

So... wait. I guess I'm a little confused as to what you point is, Nella. To me, that verse says pretty clearly that Baptism is "getting saved" as you put it. But I may have done too much homework to think straight.

Here's the scenario I always use whent he faith vs. works discussion comes up:
Suppose this guy gets "saved" one day. He really, genuinely repents and "asks Jesus into his heart." Years go by, and he slowly stops going to church, reading his Bible, etc.... Finally, he stops believing in God altogether. Where's he gonna go?

[nella]

Hmmm...

After further study from 1 Peter 3, I have to say that my interpritation of the passage was wrong. I've read some commentaries on the passage now, and here is what one opinion is. I believe that this is a clear interpritation because MacArthur looks at the Greek, keeps the passage in context, and has thouroughly researched this passage.

Quote: "This passage proves to be one of the most difficult texts in the New Testament to translate and interprit. The line between the Old Testament allusions and the New Testament applications get blurred. Peter's overall purpose of this passage, which was to encourage his readers in their suffering, must be kept in mind during interpritation. [...] Peter's analogy spotlights the ministry of Jesus Christ saving us as surely as the ark saved Noah's family. He is not referring to water baptism but a figurative immersion in Christ that keeps us safe from the flood of God's sure judgement. ... God's judgement fell on Christ just as the judgement of the floodwaters fell on the ark. The believer who is in Christ is thus in the ark of safety that will sail over the waters of judgement into eternal glory."-- John MacArthur, The MacArthur Daily Bible

A better translation of the verse would be to use the literal English-Greek equivalent word "immerse" instead of using the word "baptize," which is a Greek word meaning immersion. Same meaning, but the word can be confused with the ceremony. I think I'd done too much homework when I tried to interprit the passage.

And please, let's save debating baptism (immersion vs. sprinkling) for another time!

~Nella

[heartofgold]

Well I'm a little confused as to what you all are talking about, but since we appear to have moved on to Baptism (although I sense there's this dim connection between baptism and works that I'm missing), well, here we go...

"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Acts 2:38

"Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." John 3:5

Among a few other verses I could find make me think its a lot more than just some symbol.

[nella]

Well, according to your previous post, HoG, it seems that you think that baptism is a grace officiating work. Thus, I brought up baptism. But we can move on from there.

I'm hoping to get to what Nen said about eternal security later.

[LilyJ]

It's a simple question... where's the guy gonna "go" as we put it?

You've got a 50-50 shot.
Okay, that was some major sarcasm. I apologise. But it was funny.

[torc]

Baptism is an outward sign commanded for us to perform by Jesus that all the people in the Bible were baptized after they believed. Baptism causes no salvation.

As for faith and works...works ar ehte fruit of the spirit which is in you through faith.

my summary.

[heartofgold]

Baptism is an outward sign commanded for us to perform by Jesus that all the people in the Bible were baptized after they believed. Baptism causes no salvation.

But I still don't understand how you can support this position from the bible. Its giving fairly clear verses to support the opposite position. I mean, its nice that you think that, but you need to find something from the bible to prove that that's what it is (and that means finding a verse that says this, after that we can start explaining away verses ;D).

As for faith and works...works ar ehte fruit of the spirit which is in you through faith.

OK, meaning that you must preform them, correct? If you do not use your fruits of the Holy Spirit, then your faith is going to fall away. You gotta use 'em.

Okay, that was some major sarcasm. I apologise. But it was funny.

Why is it that every Catholic I meet is kinda bitter, cynical and sarcastic (including myself)? My entire church is that way, my family's that way, you're that way, its kinda weird ;D (blame it on the pope).

[LilyJ]

Why is it that every Catholic I meet is kinda bitter, cynical and sarcastic (including myself)? My entire church is that way, my family's that way, you're that way, its kinda weird ;D (blame it on the pope).

Haha, well, the Pope IS German... the nationality that always gets slammed. So I guess that's something i have in common with the Pope... we've both got double reason for cynicism.

I'm just sarcastic when I want to be, when I'm mad, or when it works best that way... (in other words, 95% of the time, but that's okay .) I usually get that way when people annoy me. So maybe Catholics are just higher-level thinkers. ( Ooooh, did she jsut say that?!?!? Yes she did!!!! lol)
But as a rule, I think people do tend to lash out more when they're slammed (meaning made fun of or extensively questioned in any way) a lot.

Anyway... back on topic.... Once someone finally answers my absurdly simple question, I will explain my theory on the whole faith vs. works (or not... ) issue.

[nella]

I'm sorry. I don't have time to go into all the passages on eternal security and related issues right now, but maybe I should open a new thread for that.

~Nella

[gynovia]

yeah, there is one already startedabout eternal security Nella, if you can find it lol I think its in the debate section....

[heartofgold]

I'm just sarcastic when I want to be, when I'm mad, or when it works best that way... (in other words, 95% of the time, but that's okay .) I usually get that way when people annoy me. So maybe Catholics are just higher-level thinkers. ( Ooooh, did she jsut say that?!?!? Yes she did!!!! lol)
But as a rule, I think people do tend to lash out more when they're slammed (meaning made fun of or extensively questioned in any way) a lot.

I'm sarcastic when I don't get enough sleep, which is pretty much all the time. So needless to say most people don't view me as resident optimist.

[LilyJ]

Okay, well, I"ll just get to my point without the "classic example" then (I was really just looking for a quick answer, nothing huge with verses or anything like that. I don't have the time to READ that!).

A frequent answer I've gotten is, if he changed his ways like that, he obviously never had "true" faith - it was just a seasonal thing.

That leads me to conclude that works are not so much an optional product of faith as a natural part of it. In other words, there's no question of whether you need works because if you have faith, you automatically have works. So sure, you're not gonna be perfect. Everyone makes mistakes. But someone who has true, active faith still lives a life that is morally sound - we all have our "dark" times, but there's things we would never do.

God commands us throuhg James to "be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves."

What do we do to grow in faith??? WORKS!
How do we give an effective testimony to our faith??? WORKS!!
What is the biggest thing that defines someone as "Christian" to the people around then??? WORKS!!!

So think of it this way... faith, without works, IS dead... it's not really there, it's just a concept. Works without faith are equally ineffective, as a person who isn't consciously submitting to a higher power is doing these works for some kind of personal gain.

One just doesn't come without the other. It's as simple of that.

"Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe - and tremble!" (James 2: 18-19)

And quickly addressing the Baptism question from earlier"

"Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprikled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water." (Hebrews 10: 22)

In other words - how I see it - Baptism is the big confession of faith - like Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son, we're proving our dedication to God. Or that's how I've always seen it. There's more to it than that, but there's the bare bone basics.

[nella]

I have no life anymore, and thus, don't have much time for forums or NS. But I was thinking about this topic this morning as I meditated on the cross.

Here's the way I see it. Salvation is a work of God in our lives, right? So God decides who is saved and who is not. God draws us to Himself through something that seems ridiculous to the world (the painful death of a perfect man). Christianity is a "back wards" religion. The fundamentals of our faith don't make much sense if you do not view them through the view point of Scripture. Salvation is when we realize how sinful we are and how holy and glorious God is.

When someone sees the glory of God in a way like that, how can they turn back? I just don't think it is possible. While staring at the two cups (the cup of Judgement and the cup of Salvation) I am flabbergasted that the cup of Salvation was offered to me, and Jesus took the cup of Judgement.

~Nella

[Teckor]

...... wow, heartofgold..... your still discussing this *looks at watch* how long ago did this start, before i even first come onto this forum?

lol, good to see you but I think I'll try to re-emphazise something:

Works are good to do, but they are not needed. If you will recall, earlier in James 2 it mentions two Christians and about one being able to show his faith through his works. Also, there are several verses that refer to us never being able to "fall away". Mind you we can grow more distant from God (personally) but we are still one of his children and always shall be after salvation. This issue isn't really a salvation issue but it is something important though. That is all I'll say about it since you are entitled to your opinions.

Another thing though is baptism. Personally, the spiritual baptism is more important than the physical. If I can bring our attention to statement of John the Baptist in John 1:26-27 where he talks about himself simply baptizing with water and that he is simply preceding someone greater. Still, this doesn't appear to be the main thing we're talknig about but hey, just my 2 cents

[heartofgold]

When someone sees the glory of God in a way like that, how can they turn back? I just don't think it is possible. While staring at the two cups (the cup of Judgement and the cup of Salvation) I am flabbergasted that the cup of Salvation was offered to me, and Jesus took the cup of Judgement.

But they have. You hear all the time about good people doing bad things. I've seen it before, guy with a nice family, 5 or 6 kids, goes to church every week for ten years, suddenly up and runs off to North Dakota (I think) with some woman. I have trouble believing that this guy never ever had any belief in God. Some people (like the seeds) hear, get excited, then fall away. Trials and tribulations push people away from God all the time. That's what life is all about, trying to make through the trials and tribulations.

...... wow, heartofgold..... your still discussing this *looks at watch* how long ago did this start, before i even first come onto this forum?

Well I didn't start this topic (to be fair). Just thought I'd defend my viewpoint (I think it might be good therapy).

Works are good to do, but they are not needed. If you will recall, earlier in James 2 it mentions two Christians and about one being able to show his faith through his works. Also, there are several verses that refer to us never being able to "fall away". Mind you we can grow more distant from God (personally) but we are still one of his children and always shall be after salvation. This issue isn't really a salvation issue but it is something important though. That is all I'll say about it since you are entitled to your opinions.

But once again, if they aren't necessary, why does James say they are? I agree, you show people your faith through works, but that isn't the only reason you do them. You do them to become closer to God. Simple logic tells us that if we say "yay, I'm a Christian," and spend the rest of our lives sitting on our couch watching MTV, we missed out on something.
As for eternal security, once again (besides verses in the bible, such as the parable of the sower), simple logic tells us that good people do bad things. You hear people all the time bitter about Christianity because something bad happened to them and they blame it on their religion. Now, either these people were never really Christians (which I have trouble believing), or they genuinely walked away. Now, obviously God will be happy to have them back, but if they reject him he's not gonna force them to return.

[Teckor]

James doesn't say they are "necessary" in the sense of salvation. He does not say, "You are justified before God by your works" but yes he does say that works are integral to being a Christian (or that's the drift I'm getting from it... and yes I am breaking staying quiet).

YES!!!! Good people can do horrible things, and horrible people can do good things but there is a difference between saying that they've "lost their salvation" and that they've "drifted away". One means that they're now condemned to Hell (again), the other means that their relationship has been hampered. It's kinda like a marriage (yes, this is going to be a somewhat bad example but what isn't in the world?), the married couple can definitely get anrgy at each other or one way, etc, but just because they got angry or had a disagreement doesn't mean that they're no longer married.

About the parable of the sower, I feel that you are refering to the mention of the birds eating the seeds as "lossing" salvation which can be seen as not quite an accurate interpretation because the seed hasn't grown, it is still just a seed. It was prevented from taking root.
The plant that grows in the weeds is still a plant from that seed, mind you it may not bear much fruit but it is still there, rooted.

You cannot force yourself to not be saved if you have already been saved. Your relationship can become strained, but your still in it.

[heartofgold]

James doesn't say they are "necessary" in the sense of salvation. He does not say, "You are justified before God by your works" but yes he does say that works are integral to being a Christian (or that's the drift I'm getting from it...

Well, he says faith (the requirement for salvation) is without them, meaning without them you have no faith, meaning without them you have no salvation.

But once again, all I'm really trying to say is, you can't just "get saved" then do nothing for the rest of your life. I think that's fairly obvious, its why we go to church and worship god, pray, etc. And that's all James is really saying here. If you just sit on your couch and watch television all day long, even if you do it in good faith, you're missing something.

and yes I am breaking staying quiet).

Oh good, we missed you ;D.

YES!!!!

Uh-oh.

Good people can do horrible things, and horrible people can do good things but there is a difference between saying that they've "lost their salvation" and that they've "drifted away". One means that they're now condemned to Hell (again), the other means that their relationship has been hampered. It's kinda like a marriage (yes, this is going to be a somewhat bad example but what isn't in the world?), the married couple can definitely get anrgy at each other or one way, etc, but just because they got angry or had a disagreement doesn't mean that they're no longer married.

Well I do kinda see what your saying (its not too far off from what I'm trying to say). Obviously you can fracture your relationship with your spouse, but what if you never fix it? I'm not saying you can lose all hope of salvation in this life, you can always come back, but if you completely reject God and never come back, then what?
I really don't think very many people go to hell. Hell isn't necessarily some place where your d day and night, all hell really is is eternal separation from God, obviously the worst thing that could ever happen to us. If you don't want to go to hell, you're not gonna go. However, there are people who will reject God even at judgement day (Lucifer and the demons did). So they also are going to get what they always wanted, and that's what hell is for.

You cannot force yourself to not be saved if you have already been saved. Your relationship can become strained, but your still in it.

But once again, the biggest difference we have here is the word "saved." If all you have to do to go to heaven is say, "I believe in God," why did we have so many martyrs, prophets and other people who did gave up so much for their faith? I really don't think you can get just saved once and for all until you walk into heaven, that's when its a done deal.
So in essence what I'm saying is, the reason you can "force yourself to not be saved if you already have been," is I don't think you're saved until you walk through the pearly gates. Obviously your on the right track, but you can't just quit whenever you feel like. That would be a little bit like a knight pledging his services to the king, then being shocked to find out that he actually has to do anything.

[Teckor]

All very good points heartofgold, but you can still have faith (and personally) be saved without the works it's just that it isn't "complete" in the sense. Just reading James 2:22 it stands out more pronouced that it is necessary to have a "full"/"complete" relationship with God.

James 2:22
"Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?"

And yes, I agree that you can't as a Christian just sit there and continue on your life as it was. However, that doesn't mean that your entire life will change in an instant, but it does mean that there will be this questioning as to whether you should do something or not, change something, etc.


And I knew that that issue of the spouse was going to be brought up. *sigh* if you will recall, God originally had it set up so that there would be no such thing as divorce. Divorce came because man wanted it and if I recall, Moses gave in to the demands. However, if there is no possibility of divorce then no matter how mad they get at each other, their still married. It won't be pleasant for a while but eventually they will try to work it out.
A better example than marriage though is the relationship between God and Isreal. Despite the countless times Isreal has ignored God, etc. they are still in that relationship, they are still God's chosen people and always shall be his chosen "people". This in itself indicates how once we get into a personal relationship with God, that he won't let us go. Things may slip and He may decide to let things happen but we're still with him.

THis is a little bit off topic but talking about people going to Hell or people who "appear" Christian, I was reminded of a verse (can't recall where so if you recognize it plz cite) but it says that "the heart is wicked above all things". This is important because people are wicked as a result, people's intentions are more often than not, wicked. It's sad to think about it but personally, I really think that more than a majority of the people on this earth are bound for Hell. Why should I think that? Because Jesus said that we would be scorned by the world, that not everyone would believe, and to use a non-Biblical quote "What is right is not always popular, and what is popular is not always right." History has proven this, and continues to do so.

Last point in this reply, God instills in us the desire to do good, to do what is right, and it is very difficult to try to ignore that feeling without consequence. Especially after we become "saved".

[heartofgold]

All very good points heartofgold, but you can still have faith (and personally) be saved without the works it's just that it isn't "complete" in the sense. Just reading James 2:22 it stands out more pronouced that it is necessary to have a "full"/"complete" relationship with God.

James 2:22
"Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?"

And yes, I agree that you can't as a Christian just sit there and continue on your life as it was. However, that doesn't mean that your entire life will change in an instant, but it does mean that there will be this questioning as to whether you should do something or not, change something, etc.

True, your life won't change in an instant (you have to work at it). What you're saying is really all I'm trying to say, and what I think is fairly self-apparent: If you claim to be a Christian but do nothing to act on it, you're not. I'm not saying you have to do something elaborate like build a church our bring about world peace to get to heaven, but if you talk to talk you gotta walk the walk.

And I knew that that issue of the spouse was going to be brought up. *sigh* if you will recall, God originally had it set up so that there would be no such thing as divorce. Divorce came because man wanted it and if I recall, Moses gave in to the demands. However, if there is no possibility of divorce then no matter how mad they get at each other, their still married. It won't be pleasant for a while but eventually they will try to work it out.

True, although because of man's fall there are now some legitimate reasons for divorce (most people don't get divorced for legitimate reasons, but there are some). If your wife runs off with Rick the Direct TV guy 3 months after marriage, you can get a divorce. If you just don't like your spouse anymore, well, tough.

A better example than marriage though is the relationship between God and Isreal. Despite the countless times Isreal has ignored God, etc. they are still in that relationship, they are still God's chosen people and always shall be his chosen "people". This in itself indicates how once we get into a personal relationship with God, that he won't let us go. Things may slip and He may decide to let things happen but we're still with him.

Right. You can't lose all hope of salvation in this life, you can always come back to God. In the case of the Israelites, no matter how screwed up they got, they always came back to God (eventually). So can we. But, however, the Israelites drifted away from God many times, as can we. If you refuse to come back, he can't force you to go to heaven.

Once again, though, it all comes back to what actually happens the moment you first get God's grace. Since I thought my analogy was so amazing ;D, I'll expand upon it (the one with the knight, by the way). So the knight pledges his services to the king, who promises him a spot at the round table if he serves him well for his knightly career. So the knight serves the king well for a number of years and in the end gets his spot at the round table.
Salvation is more like that. As opposed to there being one moment where you are accepted into heaven for always and eternity, you pledge your services to God for your lifetime. If you serve him faithfully in life (or purgatory for me, but lets not go there yet), you get to heaven. If you refuse to do anything for him and even go so far as to join the other side, you don't get to heaven. However, if you serve the king faithfully for only half of your knightly career, you don't get the round table.
Important fact: We do not earn a spot in heaven; nothing we do could ever even come close to giving us a right to heaven. Its still a gift from God even if he makes us, shall we say, eat our peas before we get the Ice Cream (I want some Ice Cream, I wonder if we have any...).

THis is a little bit off topic but talking about people going to Hell or people who "appear" Christian, I was reminded of a verse (can't recall where so if you recognize it plz cite) but it says that "the heart is wicked above all things". This is important because people are wicked as a result, people's intentions are more often than not, wicked. It's sad to think about it but personally, I really think that more than a majority of the people on this earth are bound for Hell. Why should I think that? Because Jesus said that we would be scorned by the world, that not everyone would believe, and to use a non-Biblical quote "What is right is not always popular, and what is popular is not always right." History has proven this, and continues to do so.

Last point in this reply, God instills in us the desire to do good, to do what is right, and it is very difficult to try to ignore that feeling without consequence. Especially after we become "saved".

But I would disagree simply because my experience, anyway, has been that people are generally nice. The heart is wicked, man is basically evil with an inclination to sin, but becoming a Christian doesn't nullify that. We're still basically evil people trying to be good. People, in general, try to be good, while our first instinct is to sin, some part inside of us tells us its wrong to do so, and most people listen. Most people are law-abiding citizens who, almost all, believe in at the very least ethics. Now, obviously there are evil people, but they are outnumbered by the good. I don't think God's gonna throw good people into hell just because they weren't good the right way.

Ya know, when everyone is allowed to get their way, things seem to be worse off than if one person got their way...

A good compromise leaves everybody unhappy...

[Guest]

The problem here is a basic difference between Catholics and Evangelicals and their approach to the Bible... ;D

[Teckor]

Yes, you should but even if you don't your still saved.

Sry but you've misunderstood my meaning. No matter what happened, the Isrealites were God's people, whether they wanted to be or not. Whether God was angry at them or not, they were still HIS people, it's not an issue of "coming back" it's an issue of who they are or what they are. The are God's people, whether in Egypt, in Babylon, the wilderness, the Holocaust, anytime, wherever, they are still GOD's people. That was the analogy I was making.

Th knight analogy may have it's merits but it lacks a true reference to God and us, His children, since the king can be overthrown or the knight betrayed by the king, or even the knight being dismissed or not being treated justly, etc.
True, it is God's gift, but once accepted it cannot be just tossed aside.

"people are generally nice"? Sry heartofgold, but friends will stab you in the back if they think it will be best for them, people will talk behind your back when you ask legitimate questions, friends will be pains in butt simply because they can. Heck, if friends can do that much and be "friends", then what about people that hardly know you?
Agreed that people often do try to do good, but more often than not, doing what is evil looks better or is more beneficial, and they will hide the fact that they did something horrible just to look better. Yes, most people are law abidding citizens, but then again, that's in regards to our laws today, man-made laws, not God's laws. Whether good outnumbers evil I sincerely doubt because if that were true, many if not all problems of the world would be non-existant.

Good people going to Hell? Sure, Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." It's not a problem of being "good" or "bad" but of being "saved" or "condemned". That is why God sent Jesus, so that we could be saved, because as you hinted earlier, we can't save our selves.

Oh, by the way, God doesn't "throw" people into Hell, people choose to go to Hell.


Nice statement, unfortunately that doesn't seem to get anything done at all, or at least nothing "good".


Thank you guest for your rather simply but true statement.

[Guest]

Ah, but I'm not really a guest, I just haven't been on in a very long time. I've had this sort of discussion with heartofgold far too long to think he'll ever give in, so I arrived at the state of resignation...