Faith and Works from the Bible

[heartofgold]

Guest said:

Ah, but I'm not really a guest, I just haven't been on in a very long time. I've had this sort of discussion with heartofgold far too long to think he'll ever give in, so I arrived at the state of resignation...

Hi Falklands ;D (did I guess right?)

I'll reply to Teckor's message later (places to be, people to see, all that).

[heartofgold]

Yes, you should but even if you don't your still saved.

Well, argument explained above.

Sry but you've misunderstood my meaning. No matter what happened, the Isrealites were God's people, whether they wanted to be or not. Whether God was angry at them or not, they were still HIS people, it's not an issue of "coming back" it's an issue of who they are or what they are. The are God's people, whether in Egypt, in Babylon, the wilderness, the Holocaust, anytime, wherever, they are still GOD's people. That was the analogy I was making.

No, actually I was just twisting your meaning ;D. My point is, yes, we're all God's people, but you can drift away. But you seem to be saying that it doesn't make any difference weather or not we drift away just so long as we were saved to begin with. So if I make a decision to become a Christian wholeheartedly and sincerely, but a few years down the road decide it isn't worth it and start hitting the nightspots 'till I die of a overdose, I'm still going to heaven? It just doesn't work logically in my mind.

Th knight analogy may have it's merits but it lacks a true reference to God and us, His children, since the king can be overthrown or the knight betrayed by the king, or even the knight being dismissed or not being treated justly, etc.

Well, work with me here (I've never heard anybody give a perfect analogy). The point remains, as opposed to being saved for always and eternity when we accept Christ, that's just the first step. We have to continue down that path for the rest of our lives. Otherwise, there's no point in even living life, I could put a bullet through my head and it would be for the best because I'm going to heaven now. If there isn't anything more we have to do to be saved, why are we here? Why does God command us to do things? Why doesn't he just say, "just sorda, believe in me, OK?" and then give us no more commands since it doesn't matter if we follow them anyway? If we have eternal salvation from day 1, then life no longer has any purpose.

True, it is God's gift, but once accepted it cannot be just tossed aside.

Why not? I mean, I agree to an extent, you can't just toss it aside forever, you can always pick it up again, but why is it a gift we must hold onto forever? God gave us free will, for good or for ill. He did that so we weren't just mindless drones doing whatever he tells us because we didn't know any better. He wants us to do what he says because we love him. If we don't and don't want him anymore, he's not going to force us to like him.

"people are generally nice"? Sry heartofgold, but friends will stab you in the back if they think it will be best for them, people will talk behind your back when you ask legitimate questions, friends will be pains in butt simply because they can. Heck, if friends can do that much and be "friends", then what about people that hardly know you?
Agreed that people often do try to do good, but more often than not, doing what is evil looks better or is more beneficial, and they will hide the fact that they did something horrible just to look better. Yes, most people are law abidding citizens, but then again, that's in regards to our laws today, man-made laws, not God's laws. Whether good outnumbers evil I sincerely doubt because if that were true, many if not all problems of the world would be non-existant.

Well yes, but we're all like that (I mean, if all your friends our back-stabbing homicidal maniacs, you might wanna get some new ones). I've been guilty of every single one of the aforementioned sins at one time or another, we all have (to different extents). I meant most people try to be, at least, ethical (most atheists do believe in ethics). We're all going to sin, evil always looks more appealing and easy to everybody, but we try to do good.
The reason we have all the problems we have today is because of sin entering the world. People sin all the time, Christian or not. That's where the problems arise from. Things like disease, disasters, and other things that man doesn't have any control over are a direct result of sin entering a perfect world.

Good people going to Hell? Sure, Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." It's not a problem of being "good" or "bad" but of being "saved" or "condemned". That is why God sent Jesus, so that we could be saved, because as you hinted earlier, we can't save our selves.

Exactly, so why would God condemn someone who doesn't want to go to hell? Lets take, say, Gandhi. Do you think Gandhi's burning in hell right now just because he wasn't a Christian? He didn't want to go to hell, he was genuinely seeking the truth in his religion and though that when he died, that's what would happen. Obviously it happened a little differently, but he had a lot less to atone for when he got up there then most people do (especially because his religion was a peaceful one).

Oh, by the way, God doesn't "throw" people into Hell, people choose to go to Hell.

Exactly. Very few people condemn Christianity and everything it stands for (Islamic extremists do, and a few atheist extremists). Most of them are just sorda, "eh, well, whatever. I mean, I don't believe it goes quite like that but you can believe whatever." I have an aunt who's Hindu (I'm not sure how devout, come to think of it I'm not even absolutely sure she still is, but I know she was at one time), but she's a good person. She doesn't condemn the rest of her family's religion, She doesn't think we're all gonna burn in hell, and I don't think she is either simply because she hasn't done anything evil, just, misguided. If God's throwing people into hell who don't want to go there just because their misguided, well, lets just say my pessimistic world view will look like an episode of Barney compared to the way the world really is.

[Teckor]

Alright, as before, Jesus said specifically "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes unto the Father but by me." Which to me implies that there is little if anything else (not to mention John 3:16, Acts 16:31, and probably many others).

Yes, you very well could but God would be there to help you out and to tell you to "pull yourself together man".

He gives us commandments and asks us to do things so that others can learn about him. Jesus said "Go out and preach unto the whole world." So obviously we can't do that if we "put a bullet through our head". Furthermore, the first step is to get saved which then allows us to enter Heaven. However, there are things know as crowns that we are said to recieve in Heaven based on what we do on Earth. These crowns (no matter what they are for) we earned because of our following of Christ.
Furthermore, life has purpose even after salvation because otherwise I really don't think I'd be here today (honest truth). However, after we are saved, God has a plan for us so that we can spread His gift and his love.

Unfortunately heartofgold, if you take a look at what marriage was originally meant to be, it was literally "till death do you part", none of this "whenever you want out" junk. So why wouldn't God have it so that once we're part of the family then we're there to stay, similar to what marriage was originally meant to be.

Yes yes yes yes..... we all sin and blah blah blah, some people however don't give a care which is the problem. Some people are even worse in that they want the world to revole around them, not around the Truth. If you will recall, God flooded the whole dang world and killed like (just an estimate) 90-99% of the worlds land population because of the fact that people were so horrible. Read the newspaper and see what people do to each other, look at the video games carefully, books, movies, etc, little if any of them say "HEY! THERE IS A GOD WHO SET OUT SPECIFIC RULES FOR A REASON!"

As with my quote about "throwing people into Hell", some people choose to go to Hell. After all, that is a free choice he gave us. Furthermore, most people by now know about God and know the truth but simply ignore it. Besides that though, people have by birth this feeling to search for God, whether the recognize Him and follow Him are a separate issue.
Any amount of sin cannot enter Heaven (whether it were a single lie or a jealous thought), that is why Jesus died. Also, that is why we are here. To tell people that they are sinners and that they need Jesus's gift in order to get to Heaven, so that they don't end up in Hell.

God's way is the right way. God tells us that all have sinned, therefore, all have sinned. God tells us that no one can come to Him but by Jesus Christ, therefore, no one can get to God (and Heaven) but by Jesus.
Everyone has done something wrong, if not more by the end of their conscious life (yes there is a difference according to some Biblical scholars see note for more details*). In these cases, we are worthy of Hell, especially when we see the evils we have committed. Yes, it may seem unfair to say but if you don't believe in God and trust Jesus then you are going to go to Hell. Yes, the may be misguided, but then it is our place, naw, our duty to try to set them strait, because if they can't accept your opinion as your opinion then they obviously think your way is wrong which is more misguided than some people.



*Note: there is the idea that there is a sort of age or condition applied for responsibility on sins. One example is babies who died before being able to even understand what is going on around them, they are classified as unable to make the choice and so are counted saved until the are capable. Mind you, they are treated as unable not as already to have chosen. Same thing is though of people who are born unable to think, etc. But all this is tangent to topic.

[heartofgold]

Alright, as before, Jesus said specifically "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes unto the Father but by me." Which to me implies that there is little if anything else (not to mention John 3:16, Acts 16:31, and probably many others).

I know Jesus says this, but does that mean we interpret it as "asking him to come into our heart"? This doesn't imply that there isn't anything else we have to do, it just says we can't get there without him (which is true, nobody gets to heaven on their own merits).

Yes, you very well could but God would be there to help you out and to tell you to "pull yourself together man".

But people have done the aforementioned. Lots of Christians turn away and die in similar ways to the above scenario. How come they didn't "pull themselves together men"? My other problem is you're saying if I do this I'm still guaranteed a spot in heaven. Perhaps I'll get there, but there isn't a guarantee.

He gives us commandments and asks us to do things so that others can learn about him. Jesus said "Go out and preach unto the whole world." So obviously we can't do that if we "put a bullet through our head". Furthermore, the first step is to get saved which then allows us to enter Heaven. However, there are things know as crowns that we are said to recieve in Heaven based on what we do on Earth. These crowns (no matter what they are for) we earned because of our following of Christ.
Furthermore, life has purpose even after salvation because otherwise I really don't think I'd be here today (honest truth). However, after we are saved, God has a plan for us so that we can spread His gift and his love.

But I don't have to do any of that. Oh sure, it might be beneficial to some other people, but what about me? Since I don't really have to care about other people to get to heaven, I'm not going to. So since it does nothing to me except prolong my stay on this rotten place we call reality, I don't see the point. Am I going to be unhappy in heaven because I didn't do this? Well, that's impossible.
That just doesn't add up to me.

Unfortunately heartofgold, if you take a look at what marriage was originally meant to be, it was literally "till death do you part", none of this "whenever you want out" junk. So why wouldn't God have it so that once we're part of the family then we're there to stay, similar to what marriage was originally meant to be.

You're right (trust me, I'm Catholic, you can't get a divorce unless its a really good reason). My point was its not an every time deal. If your spouse obviously wasn't planning on staying 'till death do you part, they you're allowed to get a divorce (there are some rules on this in Leviticus I think). But you're right. Marriage isn't a "well, whenever it quits working out" deal.

Yes yes yes yes..... we all sin and blah blah blah, some people however don't give a care which is the problem. Some people are even worse in that they want the world to revole around them, not around the Truth. If you will recall, God flooded the whole dang world and killed like (just an estimate) 90-99% of the worlds land population because of the fact that people were so horrible. Read the newspaper and see what people do to each other, look at the video games carefully, books, movies, etc, little if any of them say "HEY! THERE IS A GOD WHO SET OUT SPECIFIC RULES FOR A REASON!"

I agree, our culture today is depraved and rather senseless most of the time. God is rather inconvenient for their business, therefore none of the products reflect that (most anyway, aside from certain Left Behind video games, "no no no no no no no no, you're killing people for God!" :. But that doesn't mean everybody goes to hell. I mean, even if you do get into it some, well you might be sinning (not necessarily but you might be), Its not enough to throw everybody into hell.
Oh, and this is peanuts compared to Noah's time. Noah was the only guy left who was still righteous. We, at least, have about 80% (or so) of Americans calling themselves Christians (don't know about Canada though...).

As with my quote about "throwing people into Hell", some people choose to go to Hell. After all, that is a free choice he gave us. Furthermore, most people by now know about God and know the truth but simply ignore it. Besides that though, people have by birth this feeling to search for God, whether the recognize Him and follow Him are a separate issue.

I agree, this is what I've been saying. But how many people choose hell? I don't think people ignore the truth. Lets take Gandhi again, he was a brilliant guy, read everything about theology that he could get his hands on and decided Hinduism was the way to go (although Hindus basically believe everybody's right). Now, he didn't ignore the truth, he genuinely thought Hinduism was the truth. He was wrong, obviously, but at least he did make an informed decision. I don't think it condemns him to hell.

God's way is the right way. God tells us that all have sinned, therefore, all have sinned. God tells us that no one can come to Him but by Jesus Christ, therefore, no one can get to God (and Heaven) but by Jesus.
Everyone has done something wrong, if not more by the end of their conscious life (yes there is a difference according to some Biblical scholars see note for more details*). In these cases, we are worthy of Hell, especially when we see the evils we have committed. Yes, it may seem unfair to say but if you don't believe in God and trust Jesus then you are going to go to Hell. Yes, the may be misguided, but then it is our place, naw, our duty to try to set them strait, because if they can't accept your opinion as your opinion then they obviously think your way is wrong which is more misguided than some people.

Gee, thanks, now I have nightmares about large, purple dinosaurs stalking me at night. ;D
OK first off, I agree that people in the past have suffered for other's sins, us for Adam and Eve's sin for example. But throwing somebody into hell is the be all end all. That's it, it doesn't get any worse. It goes against everything we know about God that he would throw people into hell because we failed at our duty.

[maroondah]

I see no contradiction between James (the half brother of Jesus) and Paul. They are talking about the same thing from different sides of the same coin.
James is NOT talking about salvation. James is saying that when we accept Christ to be our Savior we WILL start having fruit.
If we are real committed Christians we will live for God and have we WILL fruit. It is possible to have no fruit and still be saved but that faith is dead.
James is saying when you have a real faith you will have real fruit and when you have dead fruit you will have dead faith.

It is the difference from being a Christian and being a Man (or Woman) of God.
It is the difference of seeing how much you can get a way with and still be a called a Christian,
and living in utmost purity and righteousness. I choose to be a Man of God.

[Guest]

heartofgold said:

Guest said:

Ah, but I'm not really a guest, I just haven't been on in a very long time. I've had this sort of discussion with heartofgold far too long to think he'll ever give in, so I arrived at the state of resignation...

Hi Falklands ;D (did I guess right?)

Yep. And you seem just as pessimistic and Catholic as ever. ;D

[Teckor]

heartofgold said:

I know Jesus says this, but does that mean we interpret it as "asking him to come into our heart"? This doesn't imply that there isn't anything else we have to do, it just says we can't get there without him (which is true, nobody gets to heaven on their own merits).

But it does imply (Acts 16:31) that it is belief in Him, and that His way is "the way". May seem mean to say but in God's case, it's His way or the highway.

But people have done the aforementioned. Lots of Christians turn away and die in similar ways to the above scenario. How come they didn't "pull themselves together men"? My other problem is you're saying if I do this I'm still guaranteed a spot in heaven. Perhaps I'll get there, but there isn't a guarantee.

Yes, there very well may have been true Christians who have killed themselves but it is my personal belief that they have gone to Heaven. Some others who have killed themselves very well might not have. Otherwise though, I'm 100% sure that God though will help you out and prevent you from commiting suicide.

But I don't have to do any of that. Oh sure, it might be beneficial to some other people, but what about me? Since I don't really have to care about other people to get to heaven, I'm not going to. So since it does nothing to me except prolong my stay on this rotten place we call reality, I don't see the point. Am I going to be unhappy in heaven because I didn't do this? Well, that's impossible.
That just doesn't add up to me.

Yes, well this reality is rotten. Unfortunately Hell, is *erhem* "a Hell of a lot worse", which is why we should stay and try to help other people not go to Hell.

You're right (trust me, I'm Catholic, you can't get a divorce unless its a really good reason). My point was its not an every time deal. If your spouse obviously wasn't planning on staying 'till death do you part, they you're allowed to get a divorce (there are some rules on this in Leviticus I think). But you're right. Marriage isn't a "well, whenever it quits working out" deal.

Once AGAIN your missing the point. God said "marriage = final" (essentially). Isrealites said "we dont like that, change it Moses".

I agree, our culture today is depraved and rather senseless most of the time. God is rather inconvenient for their business, therefore none of the products reflect that (most anyway, aside from certain Left Behind video games, "no no no no no no no no, you're killing people for God!" :. But that doesn't mean everybody goes to hell. I mean, even if you do get into it some, well you might be sinning (not necessarily but you might be), Its not enough to throw everybody into hell.
Oh, and this is peanuts compared to Noah's time. Noah was the only guy left who was still righteous. We, at least, have about 80% (or so) of Americans calling themselves Christians (don't know about Canada though...).

Okay, I would rather not go into this but here goes....
People tend to have a cery, VERY MESSED UP view of what it means to be a Christian (to use polite terms). A million to one says, that Jehovah Witnesses are classified as Christians. A trillion to one says that Mormons are classified as Christians, and the odds continue with over variations of Christ's teachings (including Gnostics). Furthermore, even after the Flood we had Sodom and Gommorrah, and Jericho, and Babylon, and who knows how many other places like them even today. Furthermore, how many people call themselves "Christians" without knowing what it means (probably alot).

I agree, this is what I've been saying. But how many people choose hell? I don't think people ignore the truth. Lets take Gandhi again, he was a brilliant guy, read everything about theology that he could get his hands on and decided Hinduism was the way to go (although Hindus basically believe everybody's right). Now, he didn't ignore the truth, he genuinely thought Hinduism was the truth. He was wrong, obviously, but at least he did make an informed decision. I don't think it condemns him to hell.

More people choose Hell than you think, maybe not maliciously but enough.
Yes, people ignore the truth (read any science journal involving paleotology and then read up on how C-14 dating works and how they determine ages and if you are extremely clearminded you will see how ignorant they are).
Unfortunately, I think he is very likely in Hell now. Why? Because unless he actually trusted Christ (which is possible considering a quote of his that I know) but otherwise no. Moderation (in terms of religions) doesn't work. Hinduism doesn't work because the Bible contradicts the Kor'an in almost all aspects, meaning that one is right and one is wrong (clear violation).

Gee, thanks, now I have nightmares about large, purple dinosaurs stalking me at night. ;D
OK first off, I agree that people in the past have suffered for other's sins, us for Adam and Eve's sin for example. But throwing somebody into hell is the be all end all. That's it, it doesn't get any worse. It goes against everything we know about God that he would throw people into hell because we failed at our duty.

You know, I've never understood that. Why people just can't seem to realize that the same God who can be considered the ultimate person of love, is also extremely just and righteous in His judgements. People go to Hell, not because "we failed at our duty", but rather because those people failed to listen to God and accept His offering.

Christian.... how many people know the true meaning of that word? "One of Christ", "Follower of Christ"..... Satan doesn't need to do anything in the world (seriously thinking about it)... he just pushes it along because it helps him.

[maroondah]

But people have done the aforementioned. Lots of Christians turn away and die in similar ways to the above scenario. How come they didn't "pull themselves together men"? My other problem is you're saying if I do this I'm still guaranteed a spot in heaven. Perhaps I'll get there, but there isn't a guarantee.

Yes, there very well may have been true Christians who have killed themselves but it is my personal belief that they have gone to Heaven. Some others who have killed themselves very well might not have. Otherwise though, I'm 100% sure that God though will help you out and prevent you from committing suicide.

If you are a true Christian I don't think you would commit suicide. God's love for us is so great and once you tap in to that love and experience that love. Perfect love. You would want to live for God. It is possible that some real Christians have gone through struggle and instead of turning to God for help they kill themselves. Would those people be in Heaven? Yes, Because God already forgave them and nothing they do or anyone else does can change that. But they are the minority. Very few (if any) true Christian's have committed suicide because once you experience God's love to it's fullest, you could not do something that drastic.

[heartofgold]

But it does imply (Acts 16:31) that it is belief in Him, and that His way is "the way". May seem mean to say but in God's case, it's His way or the highway.

But even in this verse, it doesn't say if you don't believe in him you burn in hell for all eternity. Believing in him (and doing what he says) will obviously get you to heaven, but is this to be taken to the fullest extent possible? If so, we have a contradiction when James says you have to do what he says as well as believe in him to be saved, combined with the fact that this sends most people to hell just for not believing in him (or even believing in him the right way).
Jesus talked like a normal human being, yet sometimes we try to take every single little thing he said and translate into some large, cosmic spanning saying. I don't deny that everything he said was true, but he was also human and talked like people talk. This verse isn't the be all end all because he says lots of other things expanding on this general idea.
Anyway, I'm tired and rambling, so I'll move on ;D.

Yes, there very well may have been true Christians who have but it is my personal belief that they have gone to Heaven. Some others who have very well might not have. Otherwise though, I'm 100% sure that God though will help you out and prevent you from commiting .

Well I don't deny that its possible to still go to heaven after (its harder because is a rejection of God's creation and so a rejection of him, but its possible). But God doesn't just help you out weather you like it or not. You have to go to him first, that's what free will is all about. If you don't want him he won't take you. If you want to jump off a building while saying to heck with God, he's not gonna catch you.

Yes, well this reality is rotten. Unfortunately Hell, is *erhem* "a Hell of a lot worse", which is why we should stay and try to help other people not go to Hell.

But why? Human nature tells me I want to either go live it up and forget about other people or just die now and get to heaven faster. Now that I don't have to go against my nature to get to heaven, I'm not going to. Sure, God would like it if we did try to convert people, but I have no obligation to try. It would just make him happy, but who cares? He's already done everything he can do for me, ha ha! Sucker! I'm now going to go do whatever I want since I'm guaranteed a spot in heaven.
Still isn't adding up.

Once AGAIN your missing the point. God said "marriage = final" (essentially). Isrealites said "we dont like that, change it Moses".

Wait. So all the stuff written about divorce in the bible isn't actually true? Its just the laws the Israelites made up? There's all sorts of stuff written in the bible about the laws regarding divorce (for the moment just take my word for it as I can't find it right now, but even if you don't trust me, if you just go to biblegateway.com and search divorce you get all sorts of laws about men and woman who have divorced for various reasons, the wouldn't be there if it was as simple as don't get divorced). If all this stuff is just stuff the Israelites wanted and got, how much else can I throw out of the Old Testament (or the New Testament for that matter)?
My point is, if for you its 'till do you part, but its not for your spouse, you can legally get a divorce if your spouse leaves you.

Okay, I would rather not go into this but here goes....
People tend to have a cery, VERY MESSED UP view of what it means to be a Christian (to use polite terms). A million to one says, that Jehovah Witnesses are classified as Christians. A trillion to one says that Mormons are classified as Christians, and the odds continue with over variations of Christ's teachings (including Gnostics). Furthermore, even after the Flood we had Sodom and Gommorrah, and Jericho, and Babylon, and who knows how many other places like them even today. Furthermore, how many people call themselves "Christians" without knowing what it means (probably alot).

Well, Mormons and the Jehovah's Witnesses believe some strange things I'll grant that. But if on Judgement day the Mormons are sitting on the left, I'm gonna be quaking in my boots. Because no matter what they believe or how they warp Christianity, they are some the best, honorable people I've ever seen. A much, much higher percentage of Mormons oppose things such as abortion and gay marriage than other self-proclaimed Christians do. Mormons believe some strange things, but they are really good people. They're not going to burn in hell (that's my experience with Mormons anyway, not sure about Jehovah's witnesses ).

More people choose Hell than you think, maybe not maliciously but enough.
Yes, people ignore the truth (read any science journal involving paleotology and then read up on how C-14 dating works and how they determine ages and if you are extremely clearminded you will see how ignorant they are).
Unfortunately, I think he is very likely in Hell now. Why? Because unless he actually trusted Christ (which is possible considering a quote of his that I know) but otherwise no. Moderation (in terms of religions) doesn't work. Hinduism doesn't work because the Bible contradicts the Kor'an in almost all aspects, meaning that one is right and one is wrong (clear violation).

Well your right on one point, moderation doesn't work in religion. You're either right or wrong, end of story (a concept some people in America don't get). But if you are wrong, does that condemn you to hell? That just seems kinda tough to me. Using again the example of Gandhi (but I do agree I'm not positive he's in heaven, but I think he had a pretty good shot), he was a good person who did wonders for civil rights in India. Yet since he didn't do all these good things the right way, he's burning in hell? It just seems strange to me.

You know, I've never understood that. Why people just can't seem to realize that the same God who can be considered the ultimate person of love, is also extremely just and righteous in His judgements. People go to Hell, not because "we failed at our duty", but rather because those people failed to listen to God and accept His offering.

So people who study and pick the wrong thing go to hell no matter what? There's a little bit too much riding on just simply choosing what religion to follow. Obviously its an important choice and its a lot easier to get the benefits of being a Christian is you are a Christian, but if you lead a better life than most "true Christians" lead without actually being a Christian, I don't think God's going to throw you into hell against your will. Most people don't reject God, radical Islamic ists reject God, other than that, I don't know. But Gandhi didn't reject God or Christianity, and did a lot more in life than I'll probably ever be able to lay claim to. People like that don't burn in hell.

Yep. And you seem just as pessimistic and Catholic as ever. ;D

You should come back, we've had a six month lull in activity ever since you left (you're just such an interesting person, we can't get along without you ;D).

[Teckor]

I'm not going to continue this conversation since we've ended up in sqaure one (as usual), but here are my final remarks in regard to the faith/works subject:

There is no contradiction between James and the rest of the Bible as mentioned by maroondah (with the exception that it is not Jesus's half-brother who wrote the book):

I see no contradiction between James (the half brother of Jesus) and Paul. They are talking about the same thing from different sides of the same coin.
James is NOT talking about salvation. James is saying that when we accept Christ to be our Savior we WILL start having fruit.
If we are real committed Christians we will live for God and have we WILL fruit. It is possible to have no fruit and still be saved but that faith is dead.
James is saying when you have a real faith you will have real fruit and when you have dead fruit you will have dead faith.

It is the difference from being a Christian and being a Man (or Woman) of God.
It is the difference of seeing how much you can get a way with and still be a called a Christian,
and living in utmost purity and righteousness. I choose to be a Man of God.

Either way, whatever it is you decide to make your decision, that is your decision.

About my divorce example, you once AGAIN mistake it and convert it into whatever you want (YES I just accused you of twisting words). God allowed it, and those "rules for divorce" were the result. There is a part if I recall correctly where the Isrealites (yes it is recorded) pressure Moses and then the rules unfold because of it. Also, maybe you didn't notice the fact that once a woman has been "put away" neither she nor her husband can remarry until one of the couple dies? How about pushing the fact further that wouldn't it seem strange for God to allow "modern divorce" yet punish people for adultry with death? The Isrealites demanded it and they got their just deserts, a chance to leave their spouse but to have both their lives ruined essentially until one dies.

About the world being messed up, I have alot more to say:

Jesus said something along the lines of "straight and narrow is the path t Heaven" and "braod is the path to destruction" (same chapter, but unable to relocate verse) which in itself tells us that things are going to be bad.
Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Some verses to read over that indicates further that it doesn't matter how "good" someone looks, because their still bound for a spiritual death if they don't believe. God looks at the heart and mind and knows each and every evil that we do, think, and even not realize we actually think. My main reason for doubt about Ghandi is his comment that "I like your Christ but not your Christians." He say hypocrisy but say Christ nonetheless. Whether he believed or not, idk.
Many prominent people in history are probably burning in Hell because they failed to see the truth. Even the brightest people in the world are probably burning because they were stupid enough to trust in themselves as opposed to God.

About suicide:

There are those of us who probably have considered it and probably have even gotten close to it but either failed for some reason or didn't go through with it for some unkown reason. That reason is God. Maybe you've never felt despair before but it hurts, as a matter of fact, life hurts. God promises us a Comforter and He does. God promises us that He will not give us more than we can bear and He does. If you haven't realized that then maybe you need to pull your head out of the filth of the world and what it says and get it into what God says.

Yes, we could be wrong. But it is enough for me that I've made my choice. Heck, if I was wrong, then fine, I'm wrong. But there is only one truth. Also, we (as humans) do not know the true depths of other peoples thoughts. For all I know, you could have said in your heart "there is no God", Ghandi could have said that, my dad could have said that, my grandfather, etc. and all witha straight face.

[maroondah]

Heartofgold, You (and many others) have missed a key point in the Christian faith. People need a savior because they have sinned. Lying is a sin. Lusting is a sin, Jesus said, "You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." Matthew 5:27-28 Hating is a sin. Stealing is a sin. "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it." James 2:10. If you break any of the Law you have broken the Law completely and are subject to judgment.

Many people say that God is a forgiving god and God would never send them to Hell just because the made a few mistakes or don't believe a certain thing. That is totally contradictory of the Bible. God IS a forgiving, loving God BUT he is also just and holy. He cannot have sin in his presence. He cannot let sin in to Heaven because it goes against God's very nature. God, a Just God, a Holy God, must punish sin but God still loves us. He loves us so much that he came up with a plan. He would rather die and see us live then for us to spend eternity in Hell. When Jesus died all sin came upon Him. When Jesus died all of the sins of the world died with him. God judgment was fulfilled and no one needs to go to hell. No one needs eternal separation from God because of their sin.

All we have to do to be saved, saved from Hell and eternal separation from God, is Believe. Believe God died to save you from your sins. To reinstate the relationship that was taken away when Adam sinned. All you have to do is believe and repent. That is turn away from you sin to have a full relationship with God. God does not send people to hell for not believing something, He sends them to Hell because they broke the law and did not accept the bail money. God is a holy and just Judge and only those who are perfect without sin can enter Heaven. “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” Romans 3:23. That means no one can enter Heaven by Their own goodness. Our goodness is like dirty rags to God. That is why God sent Jesus to conquer sin and death once and for all. So that our judge, God would not see us as the sinners we were, but as Perfect and Righteous though Jesus Christ. Amen!

Fighting the Good Fight of Faith,

Muroondah

[heartofgold]

I apologise for the sporadic posting, but time flows ever on and on....

About my divorce example, you once AGAIN mistake it and convert it into whatever you want (YES I just accused you of twisting words).

I'm shocked! Shocked I say! I'd never, ever do ...such a...dastardly...OK, I'll stop there.

God allowed it, and those "rules for divorce" were the result. There is a part if I recall correctly where the Isrealites (yes it is recorded) pressure Moses and then the rules unfold because of it. Also, maybe you didn't notice the fact that once a woman has been "put away" neither she nor her husband can remarry until one of the couple dies? How about pushing the fact further that wouldn't it seem strange for God to allow "modern divorce" yet punish people for ry with ? The Isrealites demanded it and they got their just deserts, a chance to leave their spouse but to have both their lives ruined essentially until one dies.

Oh, OK. This makes some sense (this is a weird position for me to be in, normally I'm arguing that there's too much divorce). All my point was there are times when divorce can be necessary. If your wife leaves you and never comes back, then you can get a divorce and remarry without fear of sinning. You might not like the fact that your wife left you, and yes, it might make you miserable for the rest of your life, but you can remarry if you so choose. But if you leave your wife, getting a divorce is wrong.

Jesus said something along the lines of "straight and narrow is the path t Heaven" and "braod is the path to destruction" (same chapter, but unable to relocate verse) which in itself tells us that things are going to be bad.
Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is , but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Some verses to read over that indicates further that it doesn't matter how "good" someone looks, because their still bound for a spiritual if they don't believe. God looks at the heart and mind and knows each and every evil that we do, think, and even not realize we actually think. My main reason for doubt about Ghandi is his comment that "I like your Christ but not your Christians." He say hypocrisy but say Christ nonetheless. Whether he believed or not, idk.
Many prominent people in history are probably burning in Hell because they failed to see the truth. Even the brightest people in the world are probably burning because they were stupid enough to trust in themselves as opposed to God.

But does this mean what you do in life counts for nothing? All that matters is that you believe in God? As James said, even the demons believe in God...and shudder. Your comments about God being just are true, but if God were truly just, nobody would go to heaven. None of us deserve heaven. So why would God let people who believe in him, but do nothing to act upon it in heaven, but throw people who don't believe in him but act like saints into hell? James makes a very good point with his comment about the demons, by your standards, the demons should be in heaven because they believe in God. People like Gandhi (or John Paul II for you) burn because they didn't believe in God the right way. That's doesn't follow along with God being a just ruler.

There are those of us who probably have considered it and probably have even gotten close to it but either failed for some reason or didn't go through with it for some unkown reason. That reason is God. Maybe you've never felt despair before but it hurts, as a matter of fact, life hurts. God promises us a Comforter and He does. God promises us that He will not give us more than we can bear and He does. If you haven't realized that then maybe you need to pull your head out of the filth of the world and what it says and get it into what God says.

Well this is true, but if God never gives us more than we can bear, why do we still sin? Why doesn't God help us out of just regular sin as well as ? The answer, of course, is that while God is there to help us and never does give us more than we can bear, we don't always bear it simply because we choose not to. God doesn't force us to do what he wants, so we don't most of the time. Sad but true. People because they feel depressed and refuse to listen to God telling them not to, weather they be Christians or not (God talks to atheists too).

Yes, we could be wrong. But it is enough for me that I've made my choice. Heck, if I was wrong, then fine, I'm wrong. But there is only one truth. Also, we (as humans) do not know the true depths of other peoples thoughts. For all I know, you could have said in your heart "there is no God", Ghandi could have said that, my dad could have said that, my grandfather, etc. and all witha straight face.

But I don't think anybody says in their heart there is not god because the heart knows there is a god. They may tell themselves there is no god and try as hard as they can to convince themselves, but nobody can ever truly tell himself there is no god and believe it heart and soul.

Heartofgold, You (and many others) have missed a key point in the Christian faith. People need a savior because they have sinned. Lying is a sin. ing is a sin, Jesus said, "You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit ery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman fully has already committed ery with her in his heart." Matthew 5:27-28 Hating is a sin. Stealing is a sin. "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it." James 2:10. If you break any of the Law you have broken the Law completely and are subject to judgment.

Many people say that God is a forgiving god and God would never send them to Hell just because the made a few mistakes or don't believe a certain thing. That is totally contradictory of the Bible. God IS a forgiving, loving God BUT he is also just and holy. He cannot have sin in his presence. He cannot let sin in to Heaven because it goes against God's very nature. God, a Just God, a Holy God, must punish sin but God still loves us. He loves us so much that he came up with a plan. He would rather die and see us live then for us to spend eternity in Hell. When Jesus died all sin came upon Him. When Jesus died all of the sins of the world died with him. God judgment was fulfilled and no one needs to go to hell. No one needs eternal separation from God because of their sin.

Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa. Now we're at the other extreme. Nobody goes to hell? Well hot dog. Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to go get wasted at the strip club downtown since nothing I do is going to send me any place bad. Its all in God's hands now, you want my sin, take it, its yours! You can have as much as you want!
Point being, if nobody goes to hell, what's the point of living any sort of righteous life?

As for Jesus taking all our sins. You're right (too much so, but you are right). Jesus died to give us a way to heaven. If he hadn't we'd all go to hell because we all deserve it. However, nobody is forced to accept this gift, you are perfectly allowed to throw it back in his face. Also, if no sin enters heaven, how do we get there? I mean, the worlds a crummy place now because of sin, but how is heaven completely sinless? If Christ took away all sins in the way your talking about, none of us would be sinning. What do we do when we get to heaven and we're all still sinners? I mean, great, Jesus can have all our sin, but heaven's gonna be a pretty crummy place if we're all still sinning up there too.
By the way, I'm working purgatory into all this 'cause I'm too lazy to go back and forth between two threads ;D. My point being, that's what purgatory is for, is a place to continue what we try to achieve in life, and that's becoming sinless like Christ so we too can enter heaven.

All we have to do to be saved, saved from Hell and eternal separation from God, is Believe. Believe God died to save you from your sins. To reinstate the relationship that was taken away when Adam sinned. All you have to do is believe and repent. That is turn away from you sin to have a full relationship with God. God does not send people to hell for not believing something, He sends them to Hell because they broke the law and did not accept the bail money. God is a holy and just Judge and only those who are perfect without sin can enter Heaven. “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” Romans 3:23. That means no one can enter Heaven by Their own goodness. Our goodness is like dirty rags to God. That is why God sent Jesus to conquer sin and once and for all. So that our judge, God would not see us as the sinners we were, but as Perfect and Righteous though Jesus Christ. Amen!

Well, you're right about one thing, God doesn't throw people into hell for believing something or another thing, he throws them into hell 'cause they didn't accept the bail money. But its not easy as pie to accept it either, you do have to do what he says. If all you had to do was believe he had bail money, then the demons should be in heaven 'cause they believe he has it too.

[maroondah]

But does this mean what you do in life counts for nothing? All that matters is that you believe in God? As James said, even the demons believe in God...and shudder. Your comments about God being just are true, but if God were truly just, nobody would go to heaven. None of us deserve heaven. So why would God let people who believe in him, but do nothing to act upon it in heaven, but throw people who don't believe in him but act like saints into hell? James makes a very good point with his comment about the demons, by your standards, the demons should be in heaven because they believe in God. People like Gandhi (or John Paul II for you) burn because they didn't believe in God the right way. That's doesn't follow along with God being a just ruler By heartofgold

One thing that I forgot to say before (my Mom mentioned it to me) is that it is not just believing, it is also accepting. That is where so many people fall. they miss Heaven by 18 inches. they have the head knowledge but they never accepted Christ into their lives to be their personal lord and savior. Also the only way God can justfully accept us into Heaven is that Christ had to die to cleanse us from Sin. To quote myself.

So that our judge, God would not see us as the sinners we were, but as Perfect and Righteous though Jesus Christ.

But I don't think anybody says in their heart there is not god because the heart knows there is a god. They may tell themselves there is no god and try as hard as they can to convince themselves, but nobody can ever truly tell himself there is no god and believe it heart and soul. By heartofgold

That is the sad thing. People ignore their God given conscience and in their hearts say there is no God. They make that choice. I know what you are saying. How can people look at the stars and say "that happened by accident." What people do is they create a god but they don't call it "god." It could be money, the sun, themselves, etc. They have to replace God with something.

Many people say that God is a forgiving god and God would never send them to Hell just because the made a few mistakes or don't believe a certain thing. That is totally contradictory of the Bible. God IS a forgiving, loving God BUT he is also just and holy. He cannot have sin in his presence. He cannot let sin in to Heaven because it goes against God's very nature. God, a Just God, a Holy God, must punish sin but God still loves us. He loves us so much that he came up with a plan. He would rather die and see us live then for us to spend eternity in Hell. When Jesus died all sin came upon Him. When Jesus died all of the sins of the world died with him. God judgment was fulfilled and no one needs to go to hell. No one needs eternal separation from God because of their sin. By maroondah

Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa. Now we're at the other extreme. Nobody goes to hell? Well hot dog. Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to go get wasted at the strip club downtown since nothing I do is going to send me any place bad. Its all in God's hands now, you want my sin, take it, its yours! You can have as much as you want!
Point being, if nobody goes to hell, what's the point of living any sort of righteous life? By heartofgold

What!?! That was not what I was saying. I said no one NEEDS eternal separation from God because of their sin. I did NOT say no one will have eternal separation from God. Very different.

However, nobody is forced to accept this gift, you are perfectly allowed to throw it back in his face.

Correct.

As for Jesus taking all our sins. You're right (too much so, but you are right). Jesus died to give us a way to heaven. If he hadn't we'd all go to hell because we all deserve it. However, nobody is forced to accept this gift, you are perfectly allowed to throw it back in his face. Also, if no sin enters heaven, how do we get there? I mean, the worlds a crummy place now because of sin, but how is heaven completely sinless? If Christ took away all sins in the way your talking about, none of us would be sinning. What do we do when we get to heaven and we're all still sinners? I mean, great, Jesus can have all our sin, but heaven's gonna be a pretty crummy place if we're all still sinning up there too.

When we accept Jesus, God no longer sees us as sinners. When God looks at us he sees Christ's glory. We as Christians can still sin but it hurts a lot worse because we have the Holy Spirit living inside of us and we hear its voice. So we get right with God before any more time goes by. God knows the heart that's what it comes down to.

Well, you're right about one thing, God doesn't throw people into hell for believing something or another thing, he throws them into hell 'cause they didn't accept the bail money. But its not easy as pie to accept it either, you do have to do what he says. If all you had to do was believe he had bail money, then the demons should be in heaven 'cause they believe he has it too.

It is not about believing in the bail money it is accepting the bail money.

heartofgold, I hope I don't seem standoff-ish because it is because I care so much that I "argue" (maybe a better word is discuss about stuff as important as this. And you started it first. ;D

[maroondah]

By the way, I'm working purgatory into all this 'cause I'm too lazy to go back and forth between two threads . My point being, that's what purgatory is for, is a place to continue what we try to achieve in life, and that's becoming sinless like Christ so we too can enter heaven.

Can you give me some biblical evidence?

[heartofgold]

One thing that I forgot to say before (my Mom mentioned it to me) is that it is not just believing, it is also accepting. That is where so many people fall. they miss Heaven by 18 inches. they have the head knowledge but they never accepted Christ into their lives to be their personal lord and savior. Also the only way God can justfully accept us into Heaven is that Christ had to die to cleanse us from Sin.

But I think the biggest difference we have here is our conflicting views of how salvation works. I don't think that salvation happens in one moment. I mean, acceptance is great and everything (the Catholic version being Baptism), but that's just the beginning. You gotta keep on keeping on for the rest of your life.

That is the sad thing. People ignore their God given conscience and in their hearts say there is no God. They make that choice. I know what you are saying. How can people look at the stars and say "that happened by ." What people do is they create a god but they don't call it "god." It could be money, the sun, themselves, etc. They have to replace God with something.

Very true. As I said nobody truly denies the existence of God, but they replace him with whatever is convenient.

What!?! That was not what I was saying. I said no one NEEDS eternal separation from God because of their sin. I did NOT say no one will have eternal separation from God. Very different.

Ahh. That makes sense. I apologise for not understanding your dreadfully unclear message (jk my fault). You're right, except that we all deserve hell to begin with, but because of Christ's we now have a way to get to heaven.

Correct.

Oh good. ;D

When we accept Jesus, God no longer sees us as sinners. When God looks at us he sees Christ's glory. We as Christians can still sin but it hurts a lot worse because we have the Holy Spirit living inside of us and we hear its voice. So we get right with God before any more time goes by. God knows the heart that's what it comes down to.

But quite frankly, I don't care what it is God's looking at or what he sees (well, that's not entirely true, but bear with me here). The fact remains we're sinners, and are sinners at our . I just don't see anyway we magically stop sinning somewhere between and heaven (unless there's purgatory.
But perhaps I'm missing your point (I've gotten rather good at that).

It is not about believing in the bail money it is accepting the bail money.

OK, let me now give you an analogy. Lets replace the bail money with Ice Cream (don't ask questions, just imagine). You want Ice Cream (so do I, but its Lent), but your dad says, "eat your peas and then you can have your Ice Cream." So you eat the peas and get the Ice Cream (good for you!). God's grace and salvation is like the Ice Cream. Its obviously a gift from God and something we don't deserve, but we also don't just get it because we want it. We have follow him, do what he says, take up our cross, so on and so forth. We can't just throw the peas on the floor and say, "gimme gimme!" and expect to get the Ice Cream, nor can we expect to get God's saving grace if we don't want to do anything for him.

Can you give me some biblical evidence?

Well, there's 1 Corinthians 3:14-15 "if what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."
And the passages in Revelation about nothing unclean entering heaven.

Frankly, I admit things I find that might refer to purgatory are open to interpretation (there's more in the Apocrypha, but that doesn't really do you any good, except that it does prove that purgatory isn't something the Catholics made up, the Jews had some idea of it as well). Most of the evidence for purgatory comes from just thinking things through. We're sinners, we're sinners when we die, we're not sinners when we enter heaven. There's a missing link in there, and its called Purgatory.

heartofgold, I hope I don't seem standoff-ish because it is because I care so much that I "argue" (maybe a better word is discuss about stuff as important as this. And you started it first. ;D

Oh don't worry. Everybody here s me because I "discuss" things so much ;D (both my parents are lawyers, so at least I come by it honest).

[Teckor]

heartofgold said:

Oh, OK. This makes some sense (this is a weird position for me to be in, normally I'm arguing that there's too much divorce). All my point was there are times when divorce can be necessary. If your wife leaves you and never comes back, then you can get a divorce and remarry without fear of sinning. You might not like the fact that your wife left you, and yes, it might make you miserable for the rest of your life, but you can remarry if you so choose. But if you leave your wife, getting a divorce is wrong.

Okay, you aren't seeing it from a Biblical perspective.... DIVORCE IS WRONG. Divorce (modern day as opposed to "putting away") is not what God wanted or what God wants. Find the verses talknig about divorce and then come back and argue (Biblical) divorce.

But does this mean what you do in life counts for nothing? All that matters is that you believe in God? As James said, even the demons believe in God...and shudder. Your comments about God being just are true, but if God were truly just, nobody would go to heaven. None of us deserve heaven. So why would God let people who believe in him, but do nothing to act upon it in heaven, but throw people who don't believe in him but act like saints into hell? James makes a very good point with his comment about the demons, by your standards, the demons should be in heaven because they believe in God. People like Gandhi (or John Paul II for you) burn because they didn't believe in God the right way. That's doesn't follow along with God being a just ruler.

There is a key difference though, God has offered to us the gift of Life, not the fallen angels. It is a gift that we have to accept. Furthermore, James is talking to the Jews (yes, it is important) and he uses Abraham as an example. However, there are other verses in the New Testament that refer to Old Testament characters and say that they were saved THROUGH FAITH. James is merly saying that the works are a direct result of the FAITH that is in us.
God gave Ghandhi a chance by introducing him to Christians, whether he accepted or not is the key question.
God judges the heart d**n it, not what a persons stature is or who he commands, it is what is in his heart and if he accepts God's gift of life.

Well this is true, but if God never gives us more than we can bear, why do we still sin? Why doesn't God help us out of just regular sin as well as ? The answer, of course, is that while God is there to help us and never does give us more than we can bear, we don't always bear it simply because we choose not to. God doesn't force us to do what he wants, so we don't most of the time. Sad but true. People because they feel depressed and refuse to listen to God telling them not to, weather they be Christians or not (God talks to atheists too).

We sin because we still have a sinful nature. Because God doesn't just *poof* make us perfect. Y? because we'd make another mistake. However, he does lift us back up and say "It's okay, I love you just the same".

But I don't think anybody says in their heart there is not god because the heart knows there is a god. They may tell themselves there is no god and try as hard as they can to convince themselves, but nobody can ever truly tell himself there is no god and believe it heart and soul.

Possible but Satan said the equivalent when he figured that he could overthrow God. They decide that they don't want to care about if God is there or not, so they say to themselves there is no god. But it's still a rejection of Christ.

Heartofgold, you seem to be arguing everything from the perspective that "the world knows what's right and okay". At least, thats the way I see it. The only problem I have with you then is that your following the wrong rules and not listening to the big picture that the Bible gives.


Oh and by the by, about the 1 Corinthians verse, that is talking about works, and determining what was righteous and what wasn't. Mind you it doesn't mention anywhere around there about any punishment for the works that are burnt. Also, nothing unclean does enter Heaven, which is y Jesus died.

A couple of corrections also, I was wrong about the remarriage part of divorcement in OT, however, divorcement had to be on something substantiable (such as uncleaness). Furthermore, about the true origin of the rules of divorcement, Jesus explains that it was because of the hard heartedness of the people (Mark 10:1-9) and what the original creation of God was meant to be. My apologies for not being human.

[Guest]

Well, there's 1 Corinthians 3:14-15 "if what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."
And the passages in Revelation about nothing unclean entering heaven.

Frankly, I admit things I find that might refer to purgatory are open to interpretation (there's more in the Apocrypha, but that doesn't really do you any good, except that it does prove that purgatory isn't something the Catholics made up, the Jews had some idea of it as well). Most of the evidence for purgatory comes from just thinking things through. We're sinners, we're sinners when we die, we're not sinners when we enter heaven. There's a missing link in there, and its called Purgatory.

There's a missing link there all right, or maybe since because Jesus said "you are Peter and on this rock I shall build my church" all subsequent popes were infallible and so God made Purgatory because they said so which therefore proved the two allegorical passages in the New Testament to be really referring to Purgatory so that the popes were right which proved that Jesus was really referring to the subsequent RCC when he said "you are Peter and on this rock I shall build my church". ;D

No, seriously, Purgatory need not be the only missing link. Try what the Bible says ( ;D) about the relationship of the inner being to the "sinner" :

22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.



- You know who

[heartofgold]

Okay, you aren't seeing it from a Biblical perspective.... DIVORCE IS WRONG. Divorce (modern day as opposed to "putting away") is not what God wanted or what God wants. Find the verses talknig about divorce and then come back and argue (Biblical) divorce.

OK. I agree, divorce is wrong almost all the time. 99.89% of the people who get divorced get divorced for the wrong reasons. But all I'm saying is there is a .11& of people who get divorced for the reasons discussed in the bible. If I find out after marriage that my wife lied to me and obviously I wasn't the only man she ever wanted and leaves for San Antonio with the guy next door and never comes back, I'm not allowed to get a divorce? That's pretty much the only scenario in which divorce is acceptable, but there is one.

There is a key difference though, God has offered to us the gift of Life, not the fallen angels. It is a gift that we have to accept.

I still don't get it. Why do we have to accept this gift? We have free will, that means we have the power to reject this gift. That's what free will means. If we must accept this gift, then we no longer have free will.

Furthermore, James is talking to the Jews (yes, it is important) and he uses Abraham as an example

Er, yes, James was talking to the Jews because the rule of the day at that point was to try to convince the thousands of Jews that the messiah had come. But anything written in the New Testament, no matter who it was written to, applies to us too.

However, there are other verses in the New Testament that refer to Old Testament characters and say that they were saved THROUGH FAITH. James is merly saying that the works are a direct result of the FAITH that is in us.

But once again, that's great that you think that, but if that's so why does it explicitly say "faith without works is "? James isn't saying works are a byproduct, he's saying if you don't work on your faith, its .

God gave Ghandhi a chance by introducing him to Christians, whether he accepted or not is the key question.
God judges the heart d**n it, not what a persons stature is or who he commands, it is what is in his heart and if he accepts God's gift of life.

OK, so you think that somebody could do some of the most amazing things for humanity the world has ever seen (e.g. John Paul II), yet in their heart be evil to the core? John Paul II was not evil, you may say he was wrong, but that doesn't condemn him to hell. He still brought down Communism (or "gave it a little shove" as he said), he still was one of the few voices of reason during a time when the world really needed some, and without him I don't know what this world would be like. Now if you want too, we can speculate that he questioned the existence of God (I don't think anybody could do the things he did if he didn't believe in them wholeheartedly, but we can speculate for the sake of the debate). Fine. He's still in heaven simply because of what he did. If he isn't, then none of us have any obligation to do any good in this world since it doesn't matter (which if we don't, the New Testament sure wastes a lot of space telling us how to live our lives). We do have an obligation to do good in this world.

We sin because we still have a sinful nature. Because God doesn't just *poof* make us perfect. Y? because we'd make another mistake. However, he does lift us back up and say "It's okay, I love you just the same".

Well, this is true, but it still doesn't explain why he'll stop Christians (only true Christians mind you, not atheists) from committing . Like I said, we all sin, and is a sin. Why does he only force us not to , but not just regular sin? Not allowing somebody to goes against the bible claiming we have free will.

Heartofgold, you seem to be arguing everything from the perspective that "the world knows what's right and okay". At least, thats the way I see it. The only problem I have with you then is that your following the wrong rules and not listening to the big picture that the Bible gives.

Er, well I'm not trying. I mean, I don't walk around the block grumbling about how I'm inside a hive of scum and villainy (God made the world, there is still some good in it), but your right, the ethical standards now are, well, nonexistent. All I'm saying is God loves everybody, and you did say that nobody who doesn't want to go to hell will go there, so why would most people want to go to hell?

A couple of corrections also, I was wrong about the remarriage part of divorcement in OT, however, divorcement had to be on something substantiable (such as uncleaness). Furthermore, about the true origin of the rules of divorcement, Jesus explains that it was because of the hard heartedness of the people (Mark 10:1-9) and what the original creation of God was meant to be. My apologies for not being human.

Well that's all I'm saying. Reasons for divorce have to be substantial, but there are reasons.

There's a missing link there all right, or maybe since because Jesus said "you are Peter and on this rock I shall build my church" all subsequent popes were infallible and so God made Purgatory because they said so which therefore proved the two allegorical passages in the New Testament to be really referring to Purgatory so that the popes were right which proved that Jesus was really referring to the subsequent RCC when he said "you are Peter and on this rock I shall build my church". ;D

That was the strangest thing I have ever read. ;D

No, seriously, Purgatory need not be the only missing link. Try what the Bible says ( ;D) about the relationship of the inner being to the "sinner" :

22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of ? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

But the flesh (which, by the way, doesn't refer to our literal flesh, since it isn't what does the sinning, "my hand made me do it" isn't a good excuse) still sins. We're taking that with us into heaven, but we can get into heaven until the war between our inner spirit and outer flesh is won.