Debating

[Teckor]

I am a diehard debator. I love it, the arguements, the emotion, and above all the stupidity that is sometimes encountered.

But in particular I like debating about "Evolution Vs Creationism", and as of such, I've gained quite the deal of info and arguments. However, though, I decided to start collecting them, but didn't get very far so I'd like you to read it over and add on anything that u think would make a good arguement. Thx.

(P.S. Atheism aka Evolution, Big Bang, etc, personal opinion)

Debating: God, the Bible, and Atheism

1) Proof of God and the Bible

1.1) Design in Creatures
The human body is so complex and works so well together that it is virtually impossible to consider that all this came by chance. A good analogy would be like saying that after a couple hundred tornado’s go through a junk yard, that a brand new Boeing 747 would be there (fully operational, fully fuelled, etc.). This is not only silly but impossible.
In this same fashion, the human body is too complex to have come by chance. The fact that the body tends to have two sets (or even one object that is divided) that can function without the other one (or with only half of it’s original). Even the regenerative properties of different body parts, such as skin, muscle, the liver (to an extent), the tips of the rib bones, and even the ability of the body to heal most wounds.
Another interesting point, is the fact that almost all the parts of the body interact in such a way (such as the brain controlling carbon dioxide levels in the lungs while sleeping) make it almost impossible for both systems or even multiple systems to develop at the same time.

[unfinished]

1.2) Evidence for the Bible
Not too long ago, cities such as Babylon, Nineveh, and even other places were thought of as pure myth, until archaeological digs discovered these cities. These cities and many other places are recorded in the Bible exactly where they are located nowadays.
These discoveries as well as others make the Bible not only accurate, but leave it never proven wrong. Things such as blood being referred to as “the life” (Genesis 9:4) and current knowledge that the blood is one of the most important parts of the body in its universal use, the fact that the world is described as “a ring, suspended by nothing” and “held up by nothing” (Job : ) which is true. Also, many of the prophecies made in Isaiah, Ezekial, and many others are comparable to really events that are recorded as history.
Even in the New Testament, there is information that is recorded in other historical texts that support it. Things such as King Herod I’s death, who was in control of Israel at the time, and how the Romans did things.

[unfinished]

1.3) The Genesis account of creation


[unfinished]

1.4) Mutation in Animals and How it all Fits in
Mutations can happen but, in most cases it is simply the removal of DNA or the corruption of DNA. These corruptions often lead to different syndromes or diseases. However, certain loses of DNA allow for the body to resist certain bacteria or viruses (ie: people with a resistance to AIDs).

[unfinished]

1.5 [no further ideas]
[unfinished]


2) Faults with Evolution

2.1) Flaws in the “Geological Timeline”
Nowhere in the world has there ever been found the complete “geological timeline”. Even the Grand Canyon which through dating methods shows that it is younger at the bottom than it is at the top makes it a paradox. Only fragments of this timeline have been found in the world.
The method of dating these “layers” has serious problems such as fossils going through entire layers and supposed “periods”. This problem makes the dating useless because the dead bodies or trees couldn’t have possibly lasted for the assumed time frame intact while they are buried and preserved.

[unfinished]

2.2) Problems with Evolution (Particulars)

[unfinished]

2.3) Fossilization Problems
There are many ideas and theories surrounding how animals could be fossilized but one of the biggest problems is fossilized aquatic animals. When aquatic animals die, they have a habit of floating on the surface of the water before finally losing their buoyancy. During this time however, a great amount of decay takes place which causes very little to be left of the creature. Plus, when what’s left of the corpse reaches the bottom, chances are that many of the scavengers or decomposers would destroy the bones and any remaining tissue before it could fossilize.
Another problem with the aquatic fossilization theory is the discovery of fossilized jellyfish. Jellyfish, as is well known, have no skeletal structure, hence making them quite flexible and fragile. More importantly though, is the fact that jellyfish then would decay much faster than the fossilization process could occur if they died and then underwent fossilization.
A more difficult problem, related to the fossilization of jellyfish, is the fossilization of extremely delicate objects that would decay faster than normal fossilization would allow. Substances such as flesh, spider’s web’s, jellyfish, and probably much more pose such a problem to explain. It would be much harder for these objects to be fossilized if it took years to cover them with dirt compared to the chances of successfully fossilizing them over a much shorter time frame.

[unfinished]

2.4) Which Came First?
This argument is based off of the riddle of “Which came first? The chicken or the egg?” However, this riddle could be altered to ask “Which came first? The bacteria or the virus?” This riddle is important because of a couple of key pieces of information.
Viruses are much simpler compared to bacteria because of the size of their RNA and the lack of almost all organelles, and DNA. This would be a key factor because according to evolution, objects would have started off simple and then become more complex. However, a virus couldn’t have been first because it wouldn’t have existed long enough for a bacteria to form for it to infect. Also, virus’s require bacteria in order to multiply and enable evolution to occur. This makes a virus being first a dead end.
However, bacteria can multiply without anything else and would enable for viruses to exist. Unfortunately, bacteria are much more complex than viruses and would therefore have jumped over many transformations. Thus, viruses wouldn’t exist because of the fact that they would have been the earliest form of RNA carrying structures.

[unfinished]

2.5) [no further ideas]

[unfinished]

[Geberia]

Wow, well I can't say I like debating that much, at least not publicaly - face-to face, but you sound very skilled teckor. Good luck.

[Teckor]

Publicaly? It's actually standing up that's the problem. internet, yes, I'd debate very readily about this issue. Reality, not as brave.

Still, have any ideas or anything that I missed?

[Triphus (Titanian)]

Hey I love debating Evolutionism vs. Creationism too! One thing you could look up and include is the stupidness of carbon dating, besides the fact that half of the operation is pure guess.......also Plate Tectonics is a very interesting subject that explains how our continents are pieced together. Part of the reason Evolution can exist is due to millions of years. Scientists are now finding that Plate shifting could have occured quite quickly reducing the age of our earth from millions of years to only 7 thousand!!!!!!

Try researching those you'll like what u find.

[Teckor]

Thx for the suggestion.

And as of now:

2.5) Carbon-14 dating flaws
Although carbon-14 dating in itself is accurate, scientists have been using carbon-14 dating in a flawed method that can bring about any answer needed. The equation for decay is C = (M/2)^(T/H) where C is the current mass of compound, M is the mass of compound when it started decay, T is the decay rate, and H is how long its been decaying. Scientists, at max, can only determine two variables for this equation, the current mass and the rate of decay. Without having a third variable, scientists have no manner of actually solving how long it has been there.
Furthermore, there are an estimated 10^88 atoms in the universe. However, only 1% of that is anything except for hydrogen or helium, thus 10^86. Let us assume then that there are 1 C-14 atom in every 1000 atoms, 10^83. Substitute this into the decay formula with the decay rate as 5675 years, the time as 6X10^6 and you should get an answer that is rounded to 1. Therefore, if there was 10^83 C-14 atoms in the universe when it began, then after 6 million years of existence, there would be one left. This is totally ridicules even if you include anti-matter/matter reactions that could take place or if there was 10% hydrogen and helium at the start.

[Chocolate Bar]

teckor said:

Publicaly? It's actually standing up that's the problem. internet, yes, I'd debate very readily about this issue. Reality, not as brave.

Still, have any ideas or anything that I missed?

Debating publicaly truly isn't as scary as it looks. I was terrified to speal in front of people but then I went to Christian debate classes and now talking in front of a group isn't a problem.

[falklands]

Great Job teckor. One thing that would make your arguments more persuasive is uses of particulars, not generalizations of arguments; even if they are correct, being precise will help. I'll add some more things on to your unfinished arguments, if you don't mind. Here's the first thing I'll do:

"2) Faults with Evolution

2.1) Flaws in the “Geological Timeline”
Nowhere in the world has there ever been found the complete “geological timeline”. Even the Grand Canyon which through dating methods shows that it is younger at the bottom than it is at the top makes it a paradox. Only fragments of this timeline have been found in the world.
The method of dating these “layers” has serious problems such as fossils going through entire layers and supposed “periods”. This problem makes the dating useless because the dead bodies or trees couldn’t have possibly lasted for the assumed time frame intact while they are buried and preserved."

Also, the whole concept of the "geological column" is based on predetermined assumptions. First, Charles Darwin, the founder of the theory of Evolution, thought that sediment deposited on the ground over a long period of time. Therefore animals buried in the ground would appear in different layers corresponding to their respective ages. This, in turn, would be a good indicator of the process of evolution over millions of years. However, all this is based on that first assumption. A notorius case of discrepancies between this so-called "geological column" and supposed evolutionary processes is the case of the Horse. Scientists found different sets of bones of creatures that looked like a horse. Look in an old science textbook and you will see this comparison. The "earliest" horse bones look small, and when put side by side with other horse bones from "later" periods, you see a progression. Scientists thought this was good evidence for evolution, but they completely ignored the fact that those "earlier" horse bones were in the same geological layer.
Note that most of the fossils scientists find are clams. The "Geological Column" is only a very small picture of the Earth's fossils.
Creation scientists believe that the layers of sediment found in the Earth have been caused by a catastrophe, such as a great flood. This type of occurrence is well-documented by scientists, such as the case of Mount St. Helens. When that volcano erupted earlier this century, shortly after teams found several layers of sediment that had formed right where previously there had been none. The geological upheavals made these thick layers in the space of a few days. Creation scientists cite the "Great Flood" as the catastrophe able to dump so much sediment on the Earth's suface.

[Armany]

I was rather enlightened by your thoughts on C-14 dating, Teckor. I really hadn't read anything about the dating process (and no, not that kind of dating ;D) itself, and your post about that was pretty understandable. That formula is the one that scientists use, eh?

And also, do you have any more info on that Grand Canyon scenario you pointed out in the same section? I found that to be interesting and wondered if you had any Internet sources that I could check out.

I too enjoy Evolution/Creation/Intelligent Design debates. Titanian, Apologetic Christ (no longer active), and I actually debated the issue in this thread: LINK

BTW, anyone read "The Case for the Creator" by Lee Stroebel?

[Teckor]

Unfortunatel,y no internet sources for the Grand Canyon info. Just from memory, heard someone speaking once about problems with evolution and he mentioned that.

The formula I got from my math textbook which used radon as an example, but otherwise, that's the formula (As far as I know).

I'll keep an eye out for that book, "The Case for the Creator". Actually, have any of u read the book "Refuting Evolution 2"? Or "Icons of Evolution" (which I unfortunately haven't gotten around to yet)?

FYI: I've heard that pigs are actually more genetically similar to us than monkeys. So, evolutionists should have a progression of a pig turning into a man rather than a monkey

[falklands]

I've further edited my addition to section 2.1. You can update your "unfinished" sections by modifying the original post if you so wish.

[Teckor]

okay, thx. and by the by, ingnore my FYI and I was wrong about the Grand Canyon being inverted but there are some ammazing folds in it and even geological layers "missing".

Information brought to you by www.answersingenesis.org.

I'll post an updated version shortly.

Done.

1) Proof of God and the Bible

1.1) Design in Creatures
The human body is so complex and works so well together that it is virtually impossible to consider that all this came by chance. A good analogy would be like saying that after a couple hundred tornado’s go through a junk yard, that a brand new Boeing 747 would be there (fully operational, fully fuelled, etc.). This is not only silly but impossible.
In this same fashion, the human body is too complex to have come by chance. The fact that the body tends to have two sets (or even one object that is divided) that can function without the other one (or with only half of it’s original). Even the regenerative properties of different body parts, such as skin, muscle, the liver (to an extent), the tips of the rib bones, and even the ability of the body to heal most wounds.
Another interesting point, is the fact that almost all the parts of the body interact in such a way (such as the brain controlling carbon dioxide levels in the lungs while sleeping) make it almost impossible for both systems or even multiple systems to develop at the same time.

[unfinished]

1.2) Evidence for the Bible
Not too long ago, cities such as Babylon, Nineveh, and even other places were thought of as pure myth, until archaeological digs discovered these cities. These cities and many other places are recorded in the Bible exactly where they are located nowadays.
These discoveries as well as others make the Bible not only accurate, but leave it never proven wrong. Things such as blood being referred to as “the life” (Genesis 9:4) and current knowledge that the blood is one of the most important parts of the body in its universal use, the fact that the world is described as “a ring, suspended by nothing” and “held up by nothing” (Job [insert location] ) which is true. Also, many of the prophecies made in Isaiah, Ezekial, and many others are comparable to really events that are recorded as history.
Even in the New Testament, there is information that is recorded in other historical texts that support it. Things such as King Herod I’s death, who was in control of Israel at the time, and how the Romans did things.

[unfinished]

1.3) The Genesis account of creation


[unfinished]

1.4) Mutation in Animals and How it all Fits in
Mutations can happen but, in most cases it is simply the removal of DNA or the corruption of DNA. These corruptions often lead to different syndromes or diseases. However, certain losses of DNA allow for the body to resist certain bacteria or viruses (ie: people with a resistance to AIDs).
Most bacteria resistances are caused by a “mutation” in the genome that causes it to either lose, change or stop producing a certain chemical or receptor. These mutations are usually unbeneficial in the real world because they hinder the bacteria, but, with less competition, these bacteria multiply and survive because the antibiotics kill off the other bacteria that would otherwise cause the mutated ones to die.

[unfinished]

1.5 [no further ideas]
[unfinished]


2) Faults with Evolution

2.1) Flaws in the “Geological Timeline”
Nowhere in the world has there ever been found the complete “geological timeline”. Only fragments of this timeline have been found in the world. Even the Grand Canyon is not immune, gigantic folds and even “missing” layers.
The method of dating these “layers” has serious problems such as fossils going through entire layers and supposed “periods”. This problem makes the dating useless because the dead bodies or trees couldn’t have possibly lasted for the assumed time frame intact while they are buried and preserved.
Also, the whole concept of the "geological column" is based on predetermined assumptions. First, Charles Darwin, the founder of the theory of Evolution, thought that sediment deposited on the ground over a long period of time. Therefore animals buried in the ground would appear in different layers corresponding to their respective ages. This, in turn, would be a good indicator of the process of evolution over millions of years. However, all this is based on that first assumption. A notorius case of discrepancies between this so-called "geological column" and supposed evolutionary processes is the case of the Horse. Scientists found different sets of bones of creatures that looked like a horse. Look in an old science textbook and you will see this comparison. The "earliest" horse bones look small, and when put side by side with other horse bones from "later" periods, you see a progression. Scientists thought this was good evidence for evolution, but they completely ignored the fact that those "earlier" horse bones were in the same geological layer. Note that most of the fossils scientists find are clams. The "Geological Column" is only a very small picture of the Earth's fossils.
Creation scientists believe that the layers of sediment found in the Earth have been caused by a catastrophe, such as a great flood. This type of occurrence is well-documented by scientists, such as the case of Mount St. Helens. When that volcano erupted earlier this century, shortly after teams found several layers of sediment that had formed right where previously there had been none. The geological upheavals made these thick layers in the space of a few days. Creation scientists cite the "Great Flood" as the catastrophe able to dump so much sediment on the Earth's surface.

[unfinished]

2.2) Problems with Evolution(Particulars)
One particular problem with evolution is the low mathematical possibility of it’s successful occurrence or the number of possibilities. If there were one thousand base pairs in a genetic code, there would be over 10^106 different combinations. The human genome has approximately 3 billion base pairs. Therefore, the number of possible outcomes are much greater and the possibility of a “successful” being is then much smaller because of the increased complexity.

[unfinished]

2.3) Fossilization Problems
There are many ideas and theories surrounding how animals could be fossilized but one of the biggest problems is fossilized aquatic animals. When aquatic animals die, they have a habit of floating on the surface of the water before finally losing their buoyancy. During this time however, a great amount of decay takes place which causes very little to be left of the creature. Plus, when what’s left of the corpse reaches the bottom, chances are that many of the scavengers or decomposers would destroy the bones and any remaining tissue before it could fossilize.
Another problem with the aquatic fossilization theory is the discovery of fossilized jellyfish. Jellyfish, as is well known, have no skeletal structure, hence making them quite flexible and fragile. More importantly though, is the fact that jellyfish then would decay much faster than the fossilization process could occur if they died and then underwent fossilization.
A more difficult problem, related to the fossilization of jellyfish, is the fossilization of extremely delicate objects that would decay faster than normal fossilization would allow. Substances such as flesh, spider’s web’s, jellyfish, and probably much more pose such a problem to explain. It would be much harder for these objects to be fossilized if it took years to cover them with dirt compared to the chances of successfully fossilizing them over a much shorter time frame.

[unfinished]

2.4) Which Came First?
This argument is based off of the riddle of “Which came first? The chicken or the egg?” However, this riddle could be altered to ask “Which came first? The bacteria or the virus?” This riddle is important because of a couple of key pieces of information.
Viruses are much simpler compared to bacteria because of the size of their RNA and the lack of almost all organelles, and DNA. This would be a key factor because according to evolution, objects would have started off simple and then become more complex. However, a virus couldn’t have been first because it wouldn’t have existed long enough for a bacteria to form for it to infect. Also, virus’s require bacteria in order to multiply and enable evolution to occur. This makes a virus being first a dead end.
However, bacteria can multiply without anything else and would enable for viruses to exist. Unfortunately, bacteria are much more complex than viruses and would therefore have jumped over many transformations. Thus, viruses wouldn’t exist because of the fact that they would have been the earliest form of RNA carrying structures.

[unfinished]

2.5) Carbon-14 dating flaws
Although carbon-14 dating in itself is accurate, scientists have been using carbon-14 dating in a flawed method that can bring about any answer needed. The equation for decay is C = (M/2)^(T/H) where C is the current mass of compound, M is the mass of compound when it started decay, T is the decay rate, and H is how long its been decaying. Scientists, at max, can only determine two variables for this equation, the current mass and the rate of decay. Without having a third variable, scientists have no manner of actually solving how long it has been there.
Furthermore, there are an estimated 10^88 atoms in the universe. However, only 1% of that is anything except for hydrogen or helium, thus 10^86. Let us assume then that there are 1 C-14 atom in every 1000 atoms, 10^83. Substitute this into the decay formula with the decay rate as 5675 years, the time as 6X10^6 and you should get an answer that is rounded to 1. Therefore, if there was 10^83 C-14 atoms in the universe when it began, then after 6 million years of existence, there would be one left. This is totally ridicules even if you include anti-matter/matter reactions that could take place or if there was 10% hydrogen and helium at the start.

2.6) [no further ideas]

[unfinished]

[Teckor]

1.5 A Creator-less Creator?
This is no doubt a question that has come about. Who (or what) is God’s creator? This question though, can be seen as irrelevant because of an important fact, that God is often times seen as a supernatural being.
To be more specific, God is a being that is not restrained or held by natural laws of existence (ie: the second law of thermodynamics, gravity, etc). Without these restraints, God can exist without a creator. This being so, there is nothing then that we understand that would be able to restrict God.

[unfinished]

P.S. All of these sections has "unfinished at the bottom to indicate the fact that they can be added onto if you find there is reason to do so.

[Teckor]

made a mistake. its now corrected (and better than ever )

2.5) Carbon-14 dating flaws
Although carbon-14 dating in itself is accurate, scientists have been using carbon-14 dating in a flawed method that can bring about any answer needed. The equation for decay is C = M(1/2)^(T/H) where C is the current mass of compound, M is the mass of compound when it started decay, T is the decay rate, and H is how long its been decaying. Scientists, at max, can only determine two variables for this equation, the current mass and the rate of decay. Without having a third variable, scientists have no manner of actually solving how long it has been there.
Furthermore, there are an estimated 10^88 atoms in the universe. However, only 1% of that is anything except for hydrogen or helium, thus 10^86. Let us assume then that there are 1 C-14 atom in every 1000 atoms, 10^83. Substitute this into the decay formula with the decay rate as 5675 years, the time as 1.56X10^6 and you should get an answer that is rounded to 1 or 2. Therefore, if there was 10^83 C-14 atoms in the universe when it began, then after 2 million years of existence, there would be none left. This is totally ridicules even if you include anti-matter/matter reactions that could take place or if there was 10% hydrogen and helium at the start.