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Post by New Titania (TD) on Oct 3, 2006 21:20:37 GMT -5
That's where you wrong. They claim to worship the same God that we do...and they claim it through their ties to Abraham in the time of Patriarchs. However, MY God doesn't tell me to "convert or kill" as it says in the Quaran. MY God didn't send Mohammed to save the world.
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Post by steelsheen on Oct 4, 2006 9:08:30 GMT -5
Who was Cain worshipping?
God.
Was his sacrifice accepted?
No.
Was he worshipping God?
Yes.
Was he doing it as he was required?
No.
But was he worshipping God?
Yes.
Do Muslims worship God?
Yes.
The same God as us?
Yes.
Do they give the sacrifice He desires?
No.
Jewish people- do they worship God?
Yes, but not through his son.
But do they worship God?
Yes.
Again, do Muslims worship and believe in God.
Yes.
Is it acceptable to God?
It is not for us to say, but I do not believe it is.
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Post by New Titania (TD) on Oct 5, 2006 6:57:34 GMT -5
I agree, Jewish people worship the same God as us. However, if you'll do some research into the Musslim religion, you'll find that they claim that they worship the same God--but that their 'God' tells them many strange and weird things. Cain and Abel heard the same thing from God, "Bring me a sacricifice," Christians and Jews have heard the same thing from God "Here are the Ten Commandments," but Musslims have not. My God is un-changing no matter who He's talking to.
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Post by steelsheen on Oct 5, 2006 17:57:55 GMT -5
I have done some research...
People who blow up abortin clinics are sometimes 'Christians'- Radicals, but 'Christians'. Do they worship the same God we do?
The muslims would not have heard the Ten commandments- Ishmael, remember?
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Post by New Titania (TD) on Oct 5, 2006 20:35:48 GMT -5
I have done some research... People who blow up abortin clinics are sometimes 'Christians'- Radicals, but 'Christians'. Do they worship the same God we do? The muslims would not have heard the Ten commandments- Ishmael, remember? They call themselves Christians--but they are in name only. My God doesn't tell me to blow up clinics and kill innocent people. You tell me, is it the same God? Just check out the Quaran (sp?), and you'll see the crazy radical things that Muslims believe--certainly not things that God (who is JESUS, remember) would ordain. They believe Jesus was a prophet...so they reject Him as God. Whoops--they're rejecting God... |
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LilyJ
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Dedication and obsession go hand in hand sometimes....
Posts: 188
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Post by LilyJ on Oct 5, 2006 22:35:20 GMT -5
It's all right if YOU don't agree with them, but by being intolerant, you're turning this whole thing into an ever bigger war. I have my faith. I live by it, I firmly believe in it, but I won't force it on others. If they ask me, I'll tell them. If they don't, I won't make them listen. If everybody could do that, we wouldn't have millions of people getting killed in the name of religion.
Who cares if it's the "same God" or not - the point is, every religion has different beliefs and does things in different ways. Who are we to say who's right and who's wrong, or whose God is the "real" God? I think the only thing that matters is what God means to each individual - and what they mean to God.
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Post by New Titania (TD) on Oct 6, 2006 6:59:04 GMT -5
It's all right if YOU don't agree with them, but by being intolerant, you're turning this whole thing into an ever bigger war. I have my faith. I live by it, I firmly believe in it, but I won't force it on others. If they ask me, I'll tell them. If they don't, I won't make them listen. If everybody could do that, we wouldn't have millions of people getting killed in the name of religion. Who cares if it's the "same God" or not - the point is, every religion has different beliefs and does things in different ways. Who are we to say who's right and who's wrong, or whose God is the "real" God? I think the only thing that matters is what God means to each individual - and what they mean to God. And where, exactly have I said that I'm intollerant. I'm not going to lie--I think Islam is a twisted religion, but if I were to see a Muslim in Wal-Mart, I wouldn't pull out a gun and pop him in the head or anything like that. We, as Christians, are to say whose God is real. "I am the way, the truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father except through me," Jesus proclaimed in the Bible. He also told us at the end of Matthew to go into all the world and preach the gospel. That means that EVEN IF someone is a loyal Jew or Muslim, we should try to convert them and save them from eternal d**nation. However, we must love as Christ loved--which means to LOVE EVERYONE. The reason we have wars is because people who try to convert aren't usually even following their own religion. |
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Post by steelsheen on Oct 6, 2006 9:13:59 GMT -5
If you truly believe, will it not ba accounted to you as righteousness?
GTG, computer lab, I shall return.
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Post by steelsheen on Oct 6, 2006 9:21:35 GMT -5
Ok, back for a sec- There is only one God, and there is no other.
There's Bible believing and Bible beating. One draws people to Christ, and the other turns them away. Personally, if I knew some Christians I knew now before I was saved I would never ever have become saved.
I partially agree with Nen- who are we to judge who is who in the sight of God? 'For who knows but in the currency of heaven they are richer than you'. (PP from Charles thingyens)
GTG, again, sorry.
And since when is the name of an English author censored? Wow.....
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LilyJ
Full Member
Dedication and obsession go hand in hand sometimes....
Posts: 188
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Post by LilyJ on Oct 6, 2006 15:08:13 GMT -5
Yeah, that's what I was trying to say....
By "intolerant," I meant that you're completely rejecting someone else's belief system - a belief system that my be fundamental to their life. Do we think it's wrong? Yes. Do they think our beliefs are wrong? Yes. Are we getting anywhere by judging each other? Nope.
When it really comes down to it, religion is our awareness of and connection to the superior being that rules the universe. We strive for something deeper in our life. Deep down, no matter how they deny it, everyone is aware that there's something making everything happen, some force so pure and powerful it's impossible to grasp. It's the awareness that has shaped every form of organized religion.
So do I believe that there is one God? Of course. Do I believe that he sent part of himself ino the world? Of course. A being so pure couldn't know sin. By sending an "ambassador" of sorts to earth, divine and connected to him, and yet human and subject to the same trials as us, he was able to connect with us more, and break down the wall of imperfection that separates us from Him. I believe He did that because He loved us - His creation - so much that he couldn't bear to see us separated from him. I also believe that, if we put our trust in His example - in His defeat of Sin - our imperfection is washed away. This knowledge lifts the proverbial weight of sin off my shoulders and puts my soul - my own connection to this "purer realm" - in a state of balance and harmony - the metaphysical state of Salvation.
It just so happens that my belief, constructed logically as well as through experience, is shared by over half the world, and has endured for 200 years. Likely it's true? Definately.
That doesn't mean that others don't find other ways of coming to that awareness and state of fulfillment. The Hindu religion is a lifelong work to gain good karma. All Buddhists are looking for enlightenment. Every religion is looking for some form of salvation, and there's no way for us to TRULY know which way is right or wrong, or if there IS a right or wrong. It's between every individual and their Creator.
I'm also not saying we shouldn't share our faith - but personally, I think it's much more effective to share by example. If you put someone on the spot, you make them uncomfortable, and they'll think Chistians are nosy and annoying and who knows what else. Unfortunately, there's also a certain stereotype for Christians - probably because of the people who go out and "Bible beat." Most pople will be turned off as soon as you try to talk to them because of that stereotype. Maybe it's different in your situation, but I've founf that the best way to reach someone is to simply be an example of the fulfilled life you can lead as a Christian, and be open and willing to answer any questions. You'd be amazed how many people wanna know once they're sure you won't cram verses down their throat and tell them they're going to hell. I've even had adults ask me questions.
We get nowhere in life by being closed-minded. Stick by your own beliefs, but at least accept that there's a possibility - however small and unlikely - that someone else may be right, too. It's the biggest irony in the world that religion - supposedly a practice of love and acceptence - is the leading cause of war. As TD so eloquently said, when we don't tolerate other points of view, we're not even following our own religion. It becomes a cult.
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Post by Geberia on Oct 6, 2006 16:25:00 GMT -5
That doesn't mean that others don't find other ways of coming to that awareness and state of fulfillment. The Hindu religion is a lifelong work to gain good karma. All Buddhists are looking for enlightenment. Every religion is looking for some form of salvation, and there's no way for us to TRULY know which way is right or wrong, or if there IS a right or wrong. It's between every individual and their Creator. I'm also not saying we shouldn't share our faith - but personally, I think it's much more effective to share by example. If you put someone on the spot, you make them uncomfortable, and they'll think Chistians are nosy and annoying and who knows what else. Unfortunately, there's also a certain stereotype for Christians - probably because of the people who go out and "Bible beat." Most pople will be turned off as soon as you try to talk to them because of that stereotype. Maybe it's different in your situation, but I've founf that the best way to reach someone is to simply be an example of the fulfilled life you can lead as a Christian, and be open and willing to answer any questions. You'd be amazed how many people wanna know once they're sure you won't cram verses down their throat and tell them they're going to hell. I've even had adults ask me questions. We get nowhere in life by being closed-minded. Stick by your own beliefs, but at least accept that there's a possibility - however small and unlikely - that someone else may be right, too. It's the biggest irony in the world that religion - supposedly a practice of love and acceptence - is the leading cause of war. Well, then, according to your first paragraph, Gyn and I going halfway around the world to be missionaries is pointless because they really could be right. I must tell you, Buddhism and Hinduism DO NOT worship the same God as Christians. They do NOT worship the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. If you hear one that has converted to Christianity, you will hear them tell of how they were so empty before; now that they have Christ they are full. One man's testimony was, " I prayed to Buddha for years for my daughters health - nothing happened. Then you ( speaking of us ) prayed for my daughter and your God healed her. How do I become a Christian?" These people are empty. Muslims are empty. Their religion is not one of tolerance and peace. I think witnessing demands different styles. Some hard-nosed people may just need a hard-nosed Christian to witness back at them and show them their need for salvation. Some softer people may need the calm one-on-one time. Everybody's different. I think of the verse," speaking the truth in love" in one of the Peters. I think you can preach hard, and still speak the truth in love. I think you can do things like street preach, and still speak it in love. Jesus did house-to house, he did it to crowds outside in the public places and inside the synagogues. But he did it with love and compassion, which is the difference. I do not think that it is an irony that different religions lead to war because, frankly, Satan is the founder of some of those religions. He hates the religion that follows the true God and his followers are made to feel the same. ( I am not speaking of one particular group here.) It is evident that people are all trying to FIND God, just that some fall into the lies of Satan, and worship darkness rather than light. So, in short, please do not tell me that, in the long run, we all COULD be worshipping the same God. It is totally against the Bible, which says that people will worship other gods, and that there are false gods. I do not judge these people as bad or worthless, worthy to die because of their religion. I rather try to bring them lovingly to Jesus, the one Way, the Life, the Everlasting Saviour, and the King of Kings. |
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Post by nella on Oct 6, 2006 16:54:26 GMT -5
Geb, great thoughts. Exactly what I was going to say when I got the time to sit down and say it!
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Post by New Titania (TD) on Oct 6, 2006 19:16:49 GMT -5
That doesn't mean that others don't find other ways of coming to that awareness and state of fulfillment. The Hindu religion is a lifelong work to gain good karma. All Buddhists are looking for enlightenment. Every religion is looking for some form of salvation, and there's no way for us to TRULY know which way is right or wrong, or if there IS a right or wrong. It's between every individual and their Creator. I'm also not saying we shouldn't share our faith - but personally, I think it's much more effective to share by example. If you put someone on the spot, you make them uncomfortable, and they'll think Chistians are nosy and annoying and who knows what else. Unfortunately, there's also a certain stereotype for Christians - probably because of the people who go out and "Bible beat." Most pople will be turned off as soon as you try to talk to them because of that stereotype. Maybe it's different in your situation, but I've founf that the best way to reach someone is to simply be an example of the fulfilled life you can lead as a Christian, and be open and willing to answer any questions. You'd be amazed how many people wanna know once they're sure you won't cram verses down their throat and tell them they're going to hell. I've even had adults ask me questions. We get nowhere in life by being closed-minded. Stick by your own beliefs, but at least accept that there's a possibility - however small and unlikely - that someone else may be right, too. It's the biggest irony in the world that religion - supposedly a practice of love and acceptence - is the leading cause of war. Well, then, according to your first paragraph, Gyn and I going halfway around the world to be missionaries is pointless because they really could be right. I must tell you, Buddhism and Hinduism DO NOT worship the same God as Christians. They do NOT worship the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. If you hear one that has converted to Christianity, you will hear them tell of how they were so empty before; now that they have Christ they are full. One man's testimony was, " I prayed to Buddha for years for my daughters health - nothing happened. Then you ( speaking of us ) prayed for my daughter and your God healed her. How do I become a Christian?" These people are empty. Muslims are empty. Their religion is not one of tolerance and peace. I think witnessing demands different styles. Some hard-nosed people may just need a hard-nosed Christian to witness back at them and show them their need for salvation. Some softer people may need the calm one-on-one time. Everybody's different. I think of the verse," speaking the truth in love" in one of the Peters. I think you can preach hard, and still speak the truth in love. I think you can do things like street preach, and still speak it in love. Jesus did house-to house, he did it to crowds outside in the public places and inside the synagogues. But he did it with love and compassion, which is the difference. I do not think that it is an irony that different religions lead to war because, frankly, Satan is the founder of some of those religions. He hates the religion that follows the true God and his followers are made to feel the same. ( I am not speaking of one particular group here.) It is evident that people are all trying to FIND God, just that some fall into the lies of Satan, and worship darkness rather than light. So, in short, please do not tell me that, in the long run, we all COULD be worshipping the same God. It is totally against the Bible, which says that people will worship other gods, and that there are false gods. I do not judge these people as bad or worthless, worthy to die because of their religion. I rather try to bring them lovingly to Jesus, the one Way, the Life, the Everlasting Saviour, and the King of Kings. Aweosme stuff, Geb. I think you bring in a really unique perspective from being from a missionary family. |
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LilyJ
Full Member
Dedication and obsession go hand in hand sometimes....
Posts: 188
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Post by LilyJ on Oct 6, 2006 21:31:19 GMT -5
I guess it's different in every situation. My chances to witness usually come up in everyday situations, such as at school, at the gym, etc. The people I'm around would completely zone out if someone came in and just started preaching to them (and I've seen it happen!). However, I've had conversations with many of them, just because it came up in the conversation. Unfortunately, I've never had the experience of actually doing ministry work abroad - I'm sure it's different, and it's definately an amzing experience to have.
But I've seen, and have heard of, many bad experiences with Christians who undoubtedly meant well, but who have totally turned people off because of the way they approached them and talked to them.
You must've understood me wrong - I was using other religions an an example of everyone looking for a similar thing, not saying that they might actually FIND it. I firmly believe that the only way to find Salvation if through Jesus Christ. My point was simply that some people following other religions may believe the same thing about their specific beliefs, and we have to respect that. We KNOW we're right, but others also say that they "know" they're right, and that's what leads to clashes.
Which is exactly why we, as Christians, have the responsibility to avoid war as much as possible. Is it so hard to at least accep the fact that others believe differently? Even the Vatican works together with Muslim and Jewish leaders. John Paul II left a legacy of ooperation and understanding, and I hate to see it dissolve because people on both sides aren't willing to accept each other.
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Post by steelsheen on Oct 7, 2006 7:07:16 GMT -5
I must say, I have to agree with you, Geberia, on saying that each witnessing situation is unique- but then, each Christian and person is unique. I, personally, refuse to Bible beat- I am silent until asked, or until something comes to stand against.
I also agree that Hinduism and Islam are false religions. On the flip side of that, I must still hold my ground that muslims believe they are worshipping God- the God of Abraham.
Also, I agree wtih Nen- it is not for us to say who is saved or not, it's God's call. On the flipside, the way to salvation is through Jesus, and it is our duty and privilege to show that way.
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Post by steelsheen on Oct 7, 2006 7:09:16 GMT -5
Random question- where's Triphus?
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Post by gynovia on Oct 7, 2006 16:09:22 GMT -5
I I also agree that Hinduism and Islam are false religions. On the flip side of that, I must still hold my ground that muslims believe they are worshipping God- the God of Abraham. they worship Allah- not the God of Abraham. |
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Post by gynovia on Oct 7, 2006 16:10:18 GMT -5
Random question- where's Triphus? no idea. i think he was raptured or something ;D |
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Post by Frisianland on Oct 9, 2006 11:43:18 GMT -5
Now as I said STOP JUDGING!! Islam is a religion, its people like some of you lot (no names mentioned) WHICH ANGERS ME. How do you know that God never preached to Mohammed. Are any of you God's sent angels to tell us!! It is a possibility that Islam is a false religion, but like Judaism and Christianity, both worship the same God DIFFERENTLY.
Did you know there are some books like Judith which aren't included in the Christian Bible, but are in the Scrolls.
So are you going to call the Jews having a false religion!!!!
The Bible says love everyone.
I see a little Haterism in some of yo' game.(Not literally in your game)
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LilyJ
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Dedication and obsession go hand in hand sometimes....
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Post by LilyJ on Oct 9, 2006 15:07:05 GMT -5
Well said Frisianland.
I explained this a little more in another post, but what I was TRYING to make clear in my previous post(s) is that, while we know we serve the one true God, every religion worships the same basic idea of an all-powerful presence or strives for a perfect and fulfilled state of being. With respect to not blowing up half the world - going against the principles of every one of those religions - over whose way is the best way, can we just be happy with that?
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steelsheenistoolazy
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Post by steelsheenistoolazy on Oct 9, 2006 15:08:24 GMT -5
Please rewrite the first portion of the argument: it is not clear, at least to me. You call us judgmental, yet you judge that we are judgmental?
I did know about Judith- it's in the Catholic Bible, is it not?
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LilyJ
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Dedication and obsession go hand in hand sometimes....
Posts: 188
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Post by LilyJ on Oct 9, 2006 15:15:37 GMT -5
Lol, confusing... agh!
Well, I know Judith is in my Bible - NRSV - so, probably?
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Post by New Titania (TD) on Oct 9, 2006 23:21:59 GMT -5
Now as I said STOP JUDGING!! Islam is a religion, its people like some of you lot (no names mentioned) WHICH ANGERS ME. How do you know that God never preached to Mohammed. Are any of you God's sent angels to tell us!! It is a possibility that Islam is a false religion, but like Judaism and Christianity, both worship the same God DIFFERENTLY. Did you know there are some books like Judith which aren't included in the Christian Bible, but are in the Scrolls. So are you going to call the Jews having a false religion!!!! The Bible says love everyone. I see a little Haterism in some of yo' game.(Not literally in your game) Guess what, you just got angrier at us for being 'angry' than any of us have been in this entire thread. Hypocrisy of the week award! ;D It's like saying, "I HATE IT WHEN PEOPLE USE CAPS-LOCK ALL THE TIME. IT DRIVE ME INSANE. CURSE ALL THOSE WHO HAVE EVERY LETTER CAPITALIZED." "You shall know them by their fruits." I see terrorists blowing up buildings in the name of Mohammed, I judge their religion. Granted, NOT ALL Muslims want to kill us all--but their bible encourages it. Not quite sure if that was a statement or a question...but I'll go ahead and answer it here. Judith is a book in the Christian Apocrypha (and found in the Catholic Bible). As for it being in the scrolls--I don't know. Most Jewish scrolls are similar to an Episcopal's Book of Daily Prayer. It's not as high or important as the Bible (or in this case, the Torah) but it is important to the religious journey and explains rituals, etc. Other Jewish scrolls can be compared to our common-day hymnals. I know you're trying to draw a connection between Jewish ritual books and the Quran...well I'll save you the trouble. Jewish books help better explain the Torah and how they think God should be praised. The Quran (I know I've probably spelled it twenty different ways already) doesn't even adhere to Abrahamic traditions and is a totally different book altogether! I never said I hated Muslims, Jews, or anyone else. But I will tell you this--they're wrong. |
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Post by Frisianland on Oct 10, 2006 9:57:08 GMT -5
what jews as well
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Post by New Titania (TD) on Oct 10, 2006 11:34:06 GMT -5
I'll assume that was a question. Yes, Jews are wrong as well! They have it right in some ways...but only to a point. If you'll recall, they don't believe that Jesus was the Messiah. In fact, they're still waiting for the Messiah (they believe it will be Elijah). Of course, they're wrong on this front. However, there are "Messianic Jews" that do believe Jesus was the Messiah. I would say that they are a lot closer to what the truth is than most Jews. However, Jews aren't going around and killing people in the name of God...they desire nothing more than peace.
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