Women Preachers/Pastors

[Armany]

heartofgold said:

Well, actually I'm not sure why their called Baptists (ask Geberia). However no, I'm pretty sure they don't look at Baptism like the Catholics.

I believe the Baptist denomination originated from the Anabaptists, who were, I'm guessing, against baptism as a litmus test for salvation. I don't know, though.

[Geberia]

right on, Armany.

[gynovia]

i think its fine for women to teach, just not preach.

[awaz]

How do you say teaching is diffrent than preaching?

And why one and not the other?

[Geberia]

Teahcing is different from preaching in that preaching is (mainly) done behind a pulpit at a church. Teaching.....well, you can teach anyone antime anywhere.
And in answer to your other questions, becuase never in the Bible does it say that a woman is quialified to be a pastor or bishop. It always refers to MEN.

[awaz]

geberia said:

Teahcing is different from preaching in that preaching is (mainly) done behind a pulpit at a church. Teaching.....well, you can teach anyone antime anywhere.
And in answer to your other questions, becuase never in the Bible does it say that a woman is quialified to be a pastor or bishop. It always refers to MEN.

That's because MEN were the heads of the house. You didn't have women going around getting their own jobs, or fighting for political office. That's because times have changed, I notice that

Revelation 21:3
And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.

Does this mean that God will only let MEN into heaven?

Or does

John 12:32
But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

mean the same?

Men means both genders in most cases.

And didn't women fight for their rights? Yes, they went to far in some cases, but they have fought and changed the system.What makes women less than then men so much so that they can't Preach?

[Geberia]

I never said women were lesser than men so that was why they couldn't preach. I know some ladies who, just by giving their testimonies, have influenced me more than any sermon. But God has given the job of preaching to men. Look at the New Testament church. Everyone prasied God and sang to him and taught publicly from house to house, but never once do we hear of a woman being a bishop, deacon, pastor, etc.... and no matter what a bunch of women did years ago, I believe in following the Biblical pattern. Sorry if that seems mean or discrimatory

[awaz]

I repeat, that is because women were the lesser vessel at the time and were not nesesarily (sp) respected or listened to as much as men were.

P.S. By the way it does not seem mean or discrimatory because I notice that is yor info you are a girl.

[Geberia]

yeah, I am ;D LOL.

Well I know women today are looked upon better now by our society and thats certianly a good thing. I'm liking that But still it dosn't change the Biblical pattern for setting up a New Testament church, with a man always having the responsibility of the bishop/pastor/preacher.
God loves women as much as men, I realize that, and I don't think God's word is being biased by always putting the man in a postion of leadership. Its just that some jobs are made specifically for certian people. A woman does better at her God-given job of being a mother that a father would. ( and im talking about the majority, I know that there are some wacky women out there who are horrible mothers ;D) Same with the pastorate.

[awaz]

But if a woman is called to be a pastor shouldn't they obey the calling?

[Geberia]

I don't think God would call a woman to be a pastor, based on, as before, his principles set out in the Bible.

[awaz]

geberia said:

I don't think God would call a woman to be a pastor, based on, as before, his principles set out in the Bible.

Please refresh me on where it says that.

[Geberia]

Well the examples of a man being a bishop are found in 1 Timothy 3, and there are some guidlines for womens roles in the church in 1 Corinthians 11 and I think there might be some in Ephesians....but that is all I know offhand. I know that there's more refrences

[falklands]

awaz said:

I repeat, that is because women were the lesser vessel at the time and were not nesesarily (sp) respected or listened to as much as men were.

...So, consider the implications. This would mean that God's divinely inspired word has been subject to bias. Would you like to reword or reconsider that statment?

[awaz]

Here is your chapter 11, I could not find anything in Ephesians:

1 Corinthians 11
1Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.
2 I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings, just as I passed them on to you.
3Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. 5And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is just as though her head were shaved. 6If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head. 7A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. 8For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head.

First Timothy 3:

8Deacons, likewise, are to be men worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. 9They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.

11In the same way, their wives are to be women worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.

12A deacon must be the husband of but one wife and must manage his children and his household well. 13Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus


I think that could go both ways.

Falklands, I would like to note First Corinthians 11 (see above) for a reply to your last comment.

[Geberia]

I believe that God's word goes both ways. Man is in a higher position than a woman, but God loves women just as much as men. For instance, TD is the president, Gyn is a COL member. tD has a higher position than Gyn, but I like them both the same ( actually, I do more than LIKE my sister LOL). I was thinking more on the lines of Ephesians 5:22-26, but that seems to refer more to marriage. I was also thinking of 1 Timothy 3:1-7, specifically in verse 1 where it says that "This is is a true saying, If a MAN desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work."

[awaz]

But once again, can't man go both ways?

[Geberia]

No, not in this case. Look in verse 2, it says that the MAN should be the husband of one wife. Obviously, its a man ;D

[awaz]

Oooooh... good one.

[Geberia]

Have I got you convinced??? *hopes* LOL

[heartofgold]

I do have to ask something here (note, though, that I'm a conservative Catholic and offer no real opinion on this debate because I'm not sure myself).
Why is teaching behind a pulpit so different than just teaching period? If they took out the pulpit, would that make it OK?
My point being, I can understand Catholics not letting woman become priests, but priest is a key word here. There's a huge difference between a priest, and a preacher or pastor. A priest is the representative of Christ, he is standing there in Christ's place, and there's a reason Christ was a man (oh boy, now I'm in trouble).
But a preacher or pastor or whatever they're called now doesn't do that. He's basically there to lead the service. He's not there to consecrate anything, he's not there to hear confessions, he's not there to do any of that. He's just there to tell people what to do and when to do it, and "preach" a sermon. The only difference we have now between the teaching and the preaching is the fact that there's a pulpit. Does the pulpit make that much of a difference? Let me tell you I'd be angry if I wasn't allowed to preach just because of a wooden block.
And like I said. The Early Church was traditional, they did all the consecrating stuff. If they didn't, it doesn't make any sense to say that only men can do this.

Anyway, no offence, because I'm not convinced of what I just told you, but that's just one of the downsides of my being Catholic ;D.

[Geberia]

Well, HoG, the preacher/pastor in a non-catholic, Christian church ( in other words, not a cult) does not do that consecrating stuff, confessions and everything because we don't believe in it. Okay, I know you knew that so sorry for being so droll However, my point is that a pastor preaches. He dosn't teach. He also does things like baptismals, baby dedicating, comissioning, ordaining. I am not against women teachers, as long as they do not take the place of the pastor/preacher. In other words, I believe its all right for a woman to stand up and give her her testimony behind a pulpit, but I do not think God has given women the job of preaching/ teaching and being a pastor. The issue isn't really a peice of wood, its whether we women have the responsiblity of preaching and pastoring.

[heartofgold]

Well, HoG, the preacher/pastor in a non-catholic, Christian church ( in other words, not a cult) does not do that consecrating stuff, confessions and everything because we don't believe in it.

Well first off, I'm don't think Catholicism is a cult because they consecrate. That makes Episcipalians a cult, Lutherans a cult, some Methodist churches cult, and so on. A lot of people do that.

However, my point is that a pastor preaches. He dosn't teach.

But what I'm asking is, what's the difference between preaching and teaching? Is there a difference between preaching and teaching, and if there is, what is it?

He also does things like baptismals, baby dedicating, comissioning, ordaining.

But again, what do baptisms mean to you? Are they just a ceremony? If so, why can't a woman perform it? Same with baby dedicating, commissioning, and ordaining. I'm comparing to Catholics here, who, for example, believe that Baptism is part of salvation (1 Pet. 3:21, Acts 2:38, 22:16, Rom. 6:3–4, Col. 2:11–12 ;D), which would explain why a woman couldn't do it, because Baptism is something only Jesus, or a representitive of Jesus should do, and the representative shouldn't be a woman. But when you baptise, is the pastor representing Jesus? Or is he just there to perform the symbolic ceremony?

I am not against women teachers, as long as they do not take the place of the pastor/preacher. In other words, I believe its all right for a woman to stand up and give her her testimony behind a pulpit, but I do not think God has given women the job of preaching/ teaching and being a pastor. The issue isn't really a peice of wood, its whether we women have the responsiblity of preaching and pastoring.

Well (you know, usually its the other way round, woman are supposed to be arguing for there merits and men are supposed to drink beer and order them around ;D, not saying you do that by the way ), I think, assuming what I just said is true, its fine for a woman to be a pastor, and if she can, she can shoulder the responsibility of being a pastor.
But this statement has no merit if the other statements aren't true, so its not necessary you argue it ;D.

Finally once again, don't get offended or anything. Half of me agrees with you anyway ;D.

[Geberia]

Okay, to clarify my first quote, I don't think Catholicism or the other denominations you mentioned are cults. They're religions....sorry if I worded it wrong. I meant to refer to Jehovah's witnesses, Mormons, etc...

Going back to 1 Timothy 3, where it says that a bishop should be a man, we find that a bishop is equivalent to a preacher or clergyman. Some definitions:
bishop: A high ranking clegryman with authority over a church district or diocese
pastor: a shepherd, a clergyman in charge of a church or congregation

So, a bishop is a form of a pastor, as both are clergymen. Oh, and here's the definition of clergyman too:
clergyman: a member of the clergy, minister, priest.
So, a pastor is somewhat related to a priest! They just do not perform all the ceremonies, etc... that a priest does because they don't believe in alot of it. But a pastor IS related to bishop and should be a man.

And I'll talk about the baptism thing in the Christianity/Catholicism board.

[heartofgold]

Okay, to clarify my first quote, I don't think Catholicism or the other denominations you mentioned are cults. They're religions....sorry if I worded it wrong. I meant to refer to Jehovah's witnesses, Mormons, etc...

Well, we're going to have to debate this in the Christianity/Catholicism thread. I wouldn't compare ourselves to them, they being very very wrong on a lot of things (no offence anybody).

Going back to 1 Timothy 3, where it says that a bishop should be a man, we find that a bishop is equivalent to a preacher or clergyman. Some definitions:
bishop: A high ranking clegryman with authority over a church district or diocese
pastor: a shepherd, a clergyman in charge of a church or congregation

So, a bishop is a form of a pastor, as both are clergymen. Oh, and here's the definition of clergyman too:
clergyman: a member of the clergy, minister, priest.
So, a pastor is somewhat related to a priest! They just do not perform all the ceremonies, etc... that a priest does because they don't believe in alot of it. But a pastor IS related to bishop and should be a man.

But my point is, its the ceremonies that make it a mans job. Without the ceremonies there's not much of a reason left to keep woman out. This would be like your religious principles telling you woman shouldn't be CEO of any company or have any responsibility what so ever. If just looking out for other people and being a leader is enough to make it solely a man's job, then woman period shouldn't have any responsibilities anywhere.

Hope you kinda see where I'm coming from. Please remember I'm basically giving you the flip side, and I did vote "no" on this poll. I'm not convinced of what I just said.