Lord of the Rings

[genj]

Since the Harry Potter debate is pretty one sided, I was wondering how many feel the same way about LotR.

[Geberia]

Since I have never read the books or seen the movie, I am indifferent. My parents would not allow me to watch it, though. Narnia is ok with them but I think they're a little scared of LOTR.

[Triphus (Titanian)]

R U SERIOUS!!! wow......

The Chronicles of Narnia and Lord of The Rings are some of the MOST Christian based books EVER!!!!! I mean there are sooo many stories in them.....especially in Narnia.....I really encourage u to read LOTR and Narnia at the same time and u might try reading the Bible at the same time too...but only if ur good at multitasking...lol

but if u want some examples of Bible stories, then i'll put em on here if u want

and C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien were HUGE Christian Authors!!!!

[Armany]

Sorry Titanian, but I think you're going to have to! I just don't see how a story that appears to have sorcery in it can be Christian.

I've never read either series. However, I have seen an excerpt of the LOTR film while in the barber shop, and what I saw I didn't especially like.

[Joel]

geberia said:

Since I have never read the books or seen the movie, I am indifferent. My parents would not allow me to watch it, though. Narnia is ok with them but I think they're a little scared of LOTR.

Same here... they won't allow it. But it does look a little evil. I vote for indifferent.

[Triphus (Titanian)]

wow.....i'm truly amazed.....Have u guys never heard of C.S. Lewis?

Ever heard of Mere Christianity? that was written by C.S. Lewis.... ok i'll put some examples.

well first u need to understand some character things...in The Chronicles of Narnia there is a lion that rules over the lands and his name is Aslan, he portrays God in Narnia. Throughout the books Aslan calls to children from our world to come help bring peace to Narnia in times of trouble. One good example is how Aslan calls to the children in unusual ways, just like how God is calling for us to show the world His glory.

In The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe, which happens to be coming in theaters Christmas, Narnia is in a deep winter, and the witch has all of Narnia under her spell. then Aslan calls four children into Narnia, and the children experience weird things....so the important part is Aslan goes forth and literally gives himself to the Witch, the Witch then ties Aslan onto a stone and ceremonicially kills him. Then when all of Narnia is in morning for their king, Aslan comes back to life and with the children defeats the Witch and her magic.

If that doesn't portray Jesus then i don't know what does.... i was searching and found a great website to help u understand a little.

www.edu.pe.ca/rural/main/library/mcquaid.htm

TD's dad has taught The Chronicles of Narnia at ORU, a Christian university here in tulsa, OK, and i'm sure TD could show u all some more examples

[Triphus (Titanian)]

Ok so i kinda sidetracked from Lord of the Rings a little so i'll get back to that.....

first let me tell u a little about the author

C.S. Lewis's best friend, with whom he shared many of his books and received much advice from, is J. R. R. Tolkien. Both of which were in a group called the "Inklings" a group of Christian fantasy writers.

Tolkien, like Lewis, created a fantasy world commonly known as Middle Earth. In Middle Earth there are wizards, hobbits, elves, men, and ents (talking trees) many of these are in Narnia. Now I must admit Tolkien even once admitted that in writing his books he did not intend for there to be a Christian background, but after revisions he realized he had. Sauron in LOTR clearly represents Satan, in which is well explained in the Silmarillion, full of darkness and the evil eye, he matches satan quite well don't u think???

Personally for me the book that really portrayed Christianity was the Silmarillion. I realize that this isn't one of the trilogy of LOTR, but it is a background book for them. In the Silmarillion it describes how Middle Earth was created. At first there was nothing, but music and thier musicians all surounding the....i forgot what they called Him, but the Big guy if u know what i mean.....anyway one named Mirah...i think..something like that...hated it and wanted to be on top, so he was cast down, by the big dude. and the big dude started to create elves, and men, and things, Mirah...or whatever captured several of those elves and created them into orcs, or as we call em demons........

I realy don't want to describe all of it, but i highly suggest reading The Silmarillion, and the Trilogy of The Lord of the Rings. The Silmarillion helped me a lot with the concept of heaven and earth.

[genj]

You got most of it Titanian. The big guy is Illuvatar and Mirah is really Melkor (later Morgoth).

There is no sorcery in LotR. If you know where there is some please tell me. The "wizards" (actually called the Istari) do not practice sorcery, they are supernatural beings more like angels than anything.

More later (I have a lot more).

[Armany]

I said that it appears to contain sorcery, GenJ. But explain to me what "supernatural beings," that exist in a fantasy where God does not exist and therefore are not angels, have to do with a Christian book. I just don't get it.

I never really have liked things like that, as you describe it, Titanian. I just don't really like the looks of the LOTR series and am interested why everybody on Earth except for me believes that it is Christian. ;D

[genj]

There is a god in LotR and many of the events in the beginning of the Silmarillion are similar to the genesis account of creation. Illuvatar (god) created the world through the music of the Ainur (angels). He then sent 19 of the greatest Ainur (the Valar) and many lesser Ainur (Miar) to prepare the world for the elves and men. One of the Valar, Melkor, became jealous because he wasn't in charge and left the others taking one third of the Miar with him (sound familiar). Sauron and the balrogs were among these Miar. The wizards (there were five originally) are also Miar and were sent by the Valar to help fight against Sauron.

I hope this answers your questions. If you want more information go to the Encyclopedia of Arda at www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.asp.

[Geberia]

Wow....all those weird names have my heard spinining! LOL. I don't know about LOTR, Armany, but you should read C.S. Lewis' "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe" and "The Last Battle." The last few sentences of the Last Battle just so clearly indicate Christ! Also, there is NO sorcery in the "Last Battle" It may seem weird when you read it, since it is the last book in the series, but it is the best one in my mind.

[Geberia]

also Titanian maybe you could help me with this. I've always wondred where the books like, The Silver Chair and Prince Caspian came into the Bible story. Maybe you can see the correlation.

[maatshalz]

armany said:

I said that it appears to contain sorcery, GenJ. But explain to me what "supernatural beings," that exist in a fantasy where God does not exist and therefore are not angels, have to do with a Christian book. I just don't get it.

I never really have liked things like that, as you describe it, Titanian. I just don't really like the looks of the LOTR series and am interested why everybody on Earth except for me believes that it is Christian. ;D

Go get 'em Armany

[Triphus (Titanian)]

Geberia i've found that a really good way to find the correlations is to listen to the books on tapes. We got a bunch from the library the other day and found a lot of correlations.,

I think the Silver Chair has some of the most obvious ones..... like for one the Prince's mother died by an evil woman who turned into a "snake"......umm another example would be when they're going to the ruins of the giants and the lady misleads them and decieves them from their straight path many times.....just stuff like that

[Geberia]

Huh, I still don't see it. I mean, I realize that that lady was supposed to stand for evil, Satan or whatever, but is it like a reference to a Bible story?
I really like the tapes. My radio station is doing a series on them this summer.

[Triphus (Titanian)]

umm in genesis.....when satan turns into a snake and decieves adam and eve............

[Geberia]

oh...I thought that was in The Magician's Nephew. Well whatever! LoL:-) They're cool books!

[Aslan the Great Lion]

LOTR is great. I love them. I am pretty sure the guy that wrote LOTR is a Christian.

[steelsheen]

ooh boy........

All right, Hannah, read pilgrims progress? I know you have- that is what is called an 'analogy' so is Chronicles of Narnia.

LoTR is not an anology, however it is in some ways faith based- I dabble in writing, and I can tell you, I believe in God. It shows in my writing, it's who I am, it's who I am, it's what I stand for, and what I am about. I can no more seperate myself from my belief than I can seperate my hand from my arm, just by thinking about it- and the Bible says that no one can do it for me! Write what you know, draw what you see! Tolkien did that.

So basically, while Lord of the Rings is NOT an anology, or was not meant to be, it has a good deal from a Christian standpoint.

Some people persist that sorcery is involved in the wizards- not really- they are made that way, by Eru/Iluvatar, and they are like watchdogs.

Nuts, gtg....

[falklands]

Actually, you will find indirect analogies throughout Tolkien's literature, even though most of them are in The Silmarillion. For example, at the very beginning of time, Melkor, like Lucifer, is created the greatest of the Maiar, or angels. And from his greed he sins and gets cast out of Illuvatar's halls, like when Jesus said, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven." The making of Orcs is another thing, because they were previously elves, but Morgoth corrupted them, like the demons that followed Satan. The fall of Numenor can be compared to the fall of Jerusalem, with their number being scattered over the earth.

Tolkien is very intricate and very clever, especially if you look deeper, and also look at the languages he created. The analogies go on and on.

[Triphus (Titanian)]

although i lead to agree more with Falklands that there are several analogies in LOTR, i agree with u Steelsheen that Tolkien might not have meant to put those analogies in his books, and he even stated that he did not, but like u said just by being a Christian, ur faith will show up in ur writing no matter what.

[steelsheen]

Thanks, Triphus! Tolkien himself said that it was not an anology- there might be some, but they might not be intentional.

[Armany]

I've missed a good deal of this debate, but I'll chime in. ;D

According to the posts of those LotR apologists here (I don't mean that derogatorally, either, it just seemed to fit , the book series contains several, or many, or however many you fancy, analogies that allegedly establish that it is Christian. Just from a logical perspective (I've never read the books, and never will), couldn't analogies be drawn from anything that could possibly correlate to Christianity?

For example, the Epic of Gilgamesh is a Sumerian(?) account of the beginnings of the earth and the Flood. This story rather blatantly supports paganism, yet is very similar to the book of Genesis. If you ask any person that has read the Epic of Gilgamesh (not that I have), they would not say that it is an analogy depicting Biblical history accurately, no matter how much "correlation" there could be in it.

How does this differ from the LotR and Christian ideology? The Lord of the Rings (correct me if I'm wrong) deals with wizardry and other non-Christian matters. It is, hence, similar to some Christian themes yet non-concurrent with Christian morality due to its content, no matter how many "analogies" there could be found in it.

[Triphus (Titanian)]

Armany, you are correct in saying that LotR is similar to other wizadry books in that it does not blatantly show Christian analogy, but like all books to fully understand the book you have to understand the author. Tolkien was part of a writing club of Christians (im pretty sure the whole club was christian but correct me if im wrong) and he also was great friends with C.S. Lewis and wrote continually to him about issues of Christianity and their stories.

You are also correct in saying that you can draw many analogies from almost any book, but that is simply because there is no possible way to avoid the Truth. Have you ever listened to music? It's categorized hugely between secular and christian. what defines the music category is not what is actually in the song, but by the faith the band believes in. There are several "all-Christian" bands that do not sing the Good News in their songs. Switchfoot for example.

I personally believe that a writer cannot avoid writing about their personal background. When I write stories I cannot avoid my Christian background or my living style. As an author it is futile to write something against all of your morals. I believe the same is with Tolkien. Although he even stated that he was not writing LotR to be a christian book, his Christian influence was reflected in his books.

[steelsheen]

Everyone finds what they look for.