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Post by GDL on Apr 19, 2005 19:49:14 GMT -5
DO you think that Pope Benedict XVI will be as popular as The Late Pope John Paul II? I don't.
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Post by New Titania (TD) on Apr 20, 2005 0:20:51 GMT -5
As popular? I don't know. Maybe. John Paul II was a very popular, succesful, and loved Pope.
Benedict XVI is, in essence, a carbon copy of John Paul II (Theologically speaking.) I don't know if it's possible for Benedict XVI to be as popular....he's 78 now, so he only has a decade (AT MOST) to make an impact...John Paul II had over twenty years.
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Post by GDL on Apr 20, 2005 9:36:25 GMT -5
I heard that he's strickter then again most Germans are.My mom had a pure German Grandma so she knows about that
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Post by Zedonius on Apr 20, 2005 22:42:22 GMT -5
I think Catholicism as a whole is begining to fade, that's just my oppinion, from what I've seen. What do you guys think?
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Post by New Titania (TD) on Apr 21, 2005 0:08:30 GMT -5
Catholicism...fading?
Not a chance. In Europe, maybe, and you might could say the same about America (although on a lesser scale.) Especially if you consider the recent rise in contemporary and evangelical worship in America (as for Europe, I'd say a decline in Christianity is in process.) If you look at Latin America and Africa, however, you will see more and more being converted to Christ through the Catholic church.
I, myself, have the upmost respect for the Church, and, on occasion, enjoy attending Orthodox services such as theirs, but I will always be bothered by their "Saint Worship" and by their thinking that saints can relieve sins. The Saint idea is awesome...but having so and so be the Saint of Trees or whatever sounds a little too much like the Greek gods....
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Post by Armany on Apr 21, 2005 13:45:28 GMT -5
Actually, TD, they just had a thing on CNN that said that a good part of Latin America was being converted to Evangelical Protestant belief from Catholicism. It was still a majority Catholic region, but evangelical Christianity is on the rise.
As for the EU and America, yes, I think that Catholicism is fading, esp. in Europe, as TD said.
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Post by GDL on Apr 21, 2005 16:25:59 GMT -5
I don't get half the stuff that they do why in the World do they pray to the Virgin Mary?She was just another WOMAN!!!!!SHe was blessed among all people but she was no better.TO pray to her that would be paganism.RIGHT?
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Post by Misty Hills on May 3, 2005 1:51:54 GMT -5
yeah i don't see why they pray to the saints and mary either...it's just the same as praying to some other idol like buda. Yeah it's against the Bible.
[glow=violet,2,300]~Misty:)[/glow]
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Post by New Titania (TD) on May 3, 2005 10:40:43 GMT -5
Well, hold on. It's not idol worship.
As some of you know, I spent a day in a Benedictine latin monestary in Clear Creek, OK and ate lunch with the monks, etc. THAT was an experience I'll never forget..... I learned more about Catholicism in that one day than I have in my whole life.
Anyway, most Catholics do not worship those saints, persay. Some actually do and have formed their own cults, but a large majority of Catholics, when they pray, pray that the Saints pray on their behalf, meaning, that they say, for example: Oh Saint Benedict, pray for us. The Catholics believe that the Saints are directly connected with God, so they pray that the Sainst "put in a good word for them." Yes, it's akward, but not completely idol worship.
As for Mary, she is revered the world over for being the mother of Jesus. The Catholics call her "our Lady" or "our Mother." She is not worshiped, but recognized as a lady chosen by God to be the mother of His Son, thus she is, in the minds of Catholics, higher and more holy than most humans. As with the Saint issue mentioned above, there are some cults that see her as the fourth member of the Holy Trinity, but a large super-majority do not.
There, I've had my spill in defense of Catholics. I'm not saying what they do is right, I'm just objectively putting forward what the Monks in OK said they believe as a church...I asked them some of these questions, and they answered with great delight.
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Post by Armany on May 3, 2005 13:46:05 GMT -5
Yes, I believe that you're on target with that, TD.
I must express vehement disagreement with the entire Saint-prayer ideology, though. For one, when Jesus told us how to pray in his divine version of what we know as "The Lord's Prayer," he never said that we had to go through some dead Saint who will then relay our concerns to God. I find it un-Biblical that Catholics practice this prayer life, and I believe that they focus too much on the Virgin Mary's blessedness while not realizing the fact that contrary to any of their preconceptions, she was just another human. I don't see them adoring Moses or Abraham or Paul in the ways that they do Mary, so I think that they just get too swept away in the fact that Mary was Jesus' mother. She was just a human, albeit the mother of the Son of God.
Of course, they would say that Mary deserves all the adoration that her name gets from them, but . . .
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Post by GDL on May 3, 2005 15:45:58 GMT -5
Infact that's blasphemey jesus is the go between.Infact if you think about it it's kinda paganistic.
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Post by New Titania (TD) on May 3, 2005 23:08:21 GMT -5
Yes, I believe that you're on target with that, TD. I must express vehement disagreement with the entire Saint-prayer ideology, though. For one, when Jesus told us how to pray in his divine version of what we know as "The Lord's Prayer," he never said that we had to go through some dead Saint who will then relay our concerns to God. I find it un-Biblical that Catholics practice this prayer life, and I believe that they focus too much on the Virgin Mary's blessedness while not realizing the fact that contrary to any of their preconceptions, she was just another human. I don't see them adoring Moses or Abraham or Paul in the ways that they do Mary, so I think that they just get too swept away in the fact that Mary was Jesus' mother. She was just a human, albeit the mother of the Son of God. Of course, they would say that Mary deserves all the adoration that her name gets from them, but . . . In defense of Catholics, Saints did not exist in Jesus' time. I FULLY agree with you, though. GDL, your claims are quite harsh and I wonder if you could provide some scripture or evidence that proves your statements. I'm not saying you're wrong (or right) but I want to hear your reasoning. |
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Post by Triphus (Titanian) on May 4, 2005 7:42:36 GMT -5
the way I see it is that all of the denominations believe in Jesus Christ and that he is our Saviour and that we will go to Heaven. we just have different views on how we will get there. like the Catholics believe that they will rest in some sort of judgement place before Jesus will take them to Heaven.
I personally am non-denominational because I purely believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is my Saviour and that He lives in my heart. I believe that as soon as I die He will take my spirit up to Heaven.
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Post by Armany on May 4, 2005 13:41:48 GMT -5
A good outlook, Titanian.
No, Saints did not exist at the time, but how Jesus told us to pray should trump any doctrine conjured up by priests or bishops that were in office hundreds of years after Jesus' death.
I personally think that early Catholic pioneers included all of the saint-prayer and Virgin Mary adoration for those pagan peoples that were prospective converts. I mean, if you make your religion just a little bit more like the one that the majority of your converts will be coming from, then you'll get people coming in droves, whereas if you stick to the party line, you're less popular.
Oh, and this is a bit of a jaunt into Catholic theology, but don't some Catholic priests deny the doctrine of grace as presented by Jesus and later by Paul in Ephesians 2:8-9? I've heard several things about some of the more liberal Catholic priests saying that you can "earn your way into Heaven." Is this true? TD and Titanian, you may know more about this than me.
The reason that I brought up that point was because if it's true, then many Catholic people will be relying on their works to get to Heaven and not so much counting on Jesus as a Savior. This is exactly the same kind of theology that Jesus condmened in his day whenever he saw the legalistic Pharisees leading the Jews astray.
Just speculation, though, about the Catholic church's parallels to legalism, as I'm not quite sure that they are.
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Post by GDL on May 4, 2005 15:41:17 GMT -5
TD you know good and well that it says in the bible that jesus said he's the go between us and the father.
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Post by maatshalz on May 7, 2005 11:27:33 GMT -5
I think the new pope is not going to be popular!!! I think the popes are just figures!!plus the new pope is really really hideus!
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Post by GDL on May 7, 2005 11:28:35 GMT -5
that was mean....
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Post by TheCatholic on May 30, 2005 22:04:12 GMT -5
Concerning 'Saint-Worship' as you call it:
Worshiping saints is NOT allowed in the Catholic Church. However, we do ask them to pray to God on our behalf, but why is that wrong? You guy have a prayer request section on this forum! So GDL, why arn't you accusing all of the people who use that forum blasphemers? Because its not wrong. The only diference between a prayer request and a 'prayer' to a saint, is that the saint is already in Heaven.
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Post by New Titania (TD) on May 30, 2005 23:24:58 GMT -5
TheCatholic,
First off, WELCOME to the CT Message Board!
I do not go as far in my thinking as GDL as to call you "blasphemers" and I think that there's nothing "evil" about the practice.
I do, fundamentally, disagree.
I understand that Catholics pray that the Saints pray on their behalf (I have studied the Catholic religion.) But, I do have a question:
Why pray to the saints?
Yes, they may already be in heaven, but do you expect them to help your standing with God? Jesus "hung out" with sinners, so in His eyes, ALL are equal, whether it be a Saint or you and I. Is it not better to just pray to God yourself? You may then think of our "Prayer Request" system. Let me explain:
I, personally, believe that only God can hear prayers. Where in the Bible (or the apocrypha) does it say that Saints or dead grandparents, etc. can hear prayers? I think that when other believers pray on your behalf to God when asked that God's presence will be felt in that situation and that His will will be done.
The difference between our Prayer Requests and your Saint prayer is that w/ prayer requests, there are many believers praying for one person to GOD. With Saint prayer (or what I understand of it) you pray to the Saints that God will help you. I just don't agree with that.
TD
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Post by TheCatholic on May 31, 2005 0:02:59 GMT -5
((if you look back on page 1, you will see that GDL called the practice 'blasphemy'. And Catholics do prayer requests too.))
Of course you can pray directly to God!
As I understand it:
A 'prayer' to the saints is basically like normal prayer requests-it is asking a saint (or saints) to pray to God for a specific cause, as you would ask your best friend to pray for you. The saints have no innate supernatural power because they are saints, they are simply other people you can ask to pray for you.
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Post by New Titania (TD) on May 31, 2005 0:06:10 GMT -5
My hang-up with the system is:
Can the Saints hear you?
Since they are dead you can't directly talk to them, you "pray" to them. Do Catholics believe that Saints can hear prayer or that only God can?
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Post by TheCatholic on May 31, 2005 0:13:28 GMT -5
My hang-up with the system is: Can the Saints hear you? Since they are dead you can't directly talk to them, you "pray" to them. Do Catholics believe that Saints can hear prayer or that only God can? I reckon they can.  I suppose the scriptural reason for this belief might come from the parable in Luke 16:19-31... Although that might be a bit of a stretch. |
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Post by New Titania (TD) on May 31, 2005 0:35:38 GMT -5
Thanks for the debate, TheCatholic! It's been fun ;D
Hey, do you have any questions about protestantism? Maybe I can help out there (or start another debate;))
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Post by TheCatholic on May 31, 2005 0:41:11 GMT -5
NP, although I think you may have won. I simply am not as knowledgeable of my faith as you are of yours...
Well, fist off TD: What denomination are you? I mean, your opinions will certainly be different depending on whther you'rer a Methodist or Calvinist or Baptist and whatnot...
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Post by New Titania (TD) on May 31, 2005 0:49:16 GMT -5
Haha, good point, TheCatholic. The protestants have many quibbles themselves....
I am (technically) a Methodist (only in the sense that I go to a Methodist church.) The Methodist church, however in my opinion, is too wobbly in the pulpit, meaning, they are appeasers and don't preach hard-core biblical truths.
I consider myself an Evangelical because I share their beliefs (speaking in tongues, spiritual warfare, etc.) and, let's not forget, Evangelican church services are SOO much more fun!! Up-beat modern worship ROCKS!
TD
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