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Post by nella on Oct 25, 2006 16:01:11 GMT -5
What do you think of when you hear the word "alternative"? Perhaps you think of something that can be seen as a substitute for something else, a more desirable option, or perhaps even just the word option. This is the dictionary.com definition of "alternative."
a choice limited to one of two or more possibilities, as of things, propositions, or courses of action, the selection of which precludes any other possibility
That matches up pretty well with what we normally think of as being an alternative. You can have plan a or plan b, but you can't have both. Usually we see alternatives as a good thing. We usually talk our preferential choice as the better alternative.
Today, I think alternative is loosing its meaning. I have noticed that alternative means compromise, and not in the good sense where both parties benefit from the exchange. Christians are often on the downside of this seeming happy medium. What specific examples have I seen as a result of this? These are just a few.
Holiday Alternative
The most recent, shocking accommodation of the culture I saw was on a local church sign. "Halloween Alternative," this sign boasted, "light up the night." Halloween in it of itself bugs me even in a worldly context, but when ghouls and goblins enter into the church, that is when I have seen more than enough. Yesterday I went to the dentist office and was shocked at all the gross stuff sitting in the lobby. It quite unnerved Stefan, I believe. He was clutching my mom's arm and hiding behind her like he had seen, well, a ghost!
This morning, my dismay grew. While watching a history lecture (and I trust this lecture. The source was Christian.), I learned that some holidays around today such as Valentine's Day and St. Patrick's day had origin in pagan holidays. The Catholic church merely "Christianized" the days by tacking on the name of a saint and possibly changing the date. I have heard that even Christmas used to be a pagan holiday, with a different name and obviously celebrating something different. Thankfully, that association does not exist any longer. Historically it is very unlikely that Christ was born in December. It is more likely his birth took place somewhere in April.
Music Alternatives
Some music is so bad that I don't know if we can truly call it an alternative to the world's music. Now don't get me wrong. I love guitar music, performed tastefully. I own an acoustic guitar, and Ian has an electric. I am not even against mild distortion. What I don't like is when a screamo singer tweaks the tune of the latest rock song, changes the lyrics into a parody off the original song, and markets it. Or even if he is original enough to come up with his own song. That style does not commend excellence, tastefulness, or holiness.
Not only is the style wrong, the association that goes along with it is unwholesome and unfitting for a child of God. Here is a quote that deals with the "alternative" dress style of punks and gothics.
Please remember that clothing styles are never neutral. Wearing baggy clothes, tie-dye shirts and dreadlocks will associate you with hippies and reggae music. Wearing a white shirt and tie with slacks and dress shoes will associate you with smart, hard working professionals. Wearing jeans and a t-shirt will probably typify you as some one who values comfort and simplicity. -- Nathan Sleadd
While this specifically talks about clothing styles, doesn't the same thing apply to music? Nathan even hinted at this while associating clothes with the music you listen to. (Hmm-- I wonder if people can tell what music I listen to because of my clothes. Any guesses appreciated!)
I'm planning on continuing my thoughts withing the next few days.
~Nella
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Post by heartofgold on Oct 26, 2006 10:43:20 GMT -5
OK. This is a popular theory (just because everybody loves to hate Catholics and try to blame them for everything, the death of the dinosaurs and such) but its wrong. While the Catholic church did replace pagan holidays with Christan ones, they did just that: replace. So, what's the big deal? They kicked out a pagan holiday, said "this is bad, this is what your gonna do now." Its not enough to just implement new holidays, because people tend to become deeply rooted in their tradition. You have to replace one of their old traditions with a new one. December 25th was for a long time the day of many pagan rituals. So the Church said "Alright, no more. Now you celebrate the birth of Christ." Same with Halloween. What it really is now is All saints day, where we celebrate the saints that have died. It used to be some Celtic thing with ghouls and the like, but they kicked that out too. Seemed like a good move to me.
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Post by Geberia on Oct 26, 2006 14:25:28 GMT -5
Only, sadly, they havn't really suceeded in kicking the ghouls out of Halloween, except if you're Catholic. ( And yet even some Catholics celebrate Halloween, the same as these Christians Nella talked of.) I agree with the principle, but it seems to have failed as far as Halloween is considered  And I agree with your statement on music, Nella. As HeartofGold said, you have put something good in place of something bad, yet how can music that sounds practically the same as the world's music ( with the exception of a few words tweaked, as you said) really be a change for the good? There's practically nothing different!!! Ah well, I digress.... |
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LilyJ
Full Member
Dedication and obsession go hand in hand sometimes....
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Post by LilyJ on Oct 26, 2006 19:54:25 GMT -5
Well, I made a long, rambly reply to this on Elendor, but HoG pretty much said what I did about the holidays (I love having a fellow Catholic who has the same opinions as me....  . Remember, Constantine changed the religion on the Roman Empire pretty much overnight - of course those pagan feast days were still traditional, so they had to come up with an alternative. As I said on Elendor, that's a blatant generalization. At the risk of sounding accusative... who are you to criticize the STYLE of music someone listens to? It's the lyrics that are bad, not the style itself. I just happen to like some of the heavier metal stuff - call me a punk, but I just love the powerful sound behind it, with the driving guitars, killer bass lines, smashing drums... does that make me any less of a Christian? Nope. I use discretion - if a song has questionable lyrics, I don't listen to it. You can't expect ebeyone to consider the same style of music "tasteful." As if you don't believe me, look at the Christian metal bands - P.O.D, for example, is your ultimate definition of "screamer," but they've got positive lyrics! More generalization - it's a very small minority that actually dresses in accordance with a certain style of music - your "goths" and "punks" and whatnot. The rest - even those who might listen to the same bands - dress perfectly "normal" by societal standards. I know I'm not gonna randomly decide to dye my hair black and start wearing a trench coat jsut because I listen to heavy metal stuff - and neither are the people I know who like the same bands. |
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Post by nella on Oct 27, 2006 13:38:44 GMT -5
HoG, I do not love to hate Catholics! I live in a Catholic city that leaves the Baptist church's out of the phone books. Here, everyone loves to hate baptists. Some of my best friends are Catholics.
Nen, thank you for your response. I have carefully considered your arguments. My point in my arguments wasn't to debate-- it was to discuss why we do the things we do, why we celebrate the way we celebrate, and why we listen to what we listen to. As to generalizations. One of the best ways to tell if you generalize is to check your indefinite pronoun usage. With a quick read through, I counted 3 indefinite pronouns. One was all, referring to "all the gross stuff in the lobby," and two were some, some music and some holidays. I wouldn't call some a huge generalization.
Hannah, thanks for the support :-)
In response: I have not entirely researched the whole holiday issue. Yes, I have heard of All Hallow's Eve, which was a good holiday. That is interesting on how the candy-passing got started. I didn't know that. Dressing up and candy passing are fun things to do. I don't necesarrily dress up for Halloween, but I do like dressing up in period costumes or replicating LotR outfits. What I find sickening is all the ghoul, ghost, and goblin garbage that permeates stores, yards, and public places in late October. Notice that I made it clear that in the world, we can expect gross stuff like that to appear. I mainly protest it in the church. I find it sick that a church would do something like that.
Quoting myself here, "What I don't like is when a screamo singer tweaks the tune of the latest rock song, changes the lyrics into a parody off the original song, and markets it. " I forgot to mention that this "screamo singer" claims to be a Christian, and makes his copy-song discuss slightly spiritual or Christian themes. Again with the Halloween issue, in the world, I see something as wrong, but I expect non-Christians to do sinful things. I know Christians will also sin, but we are to forsake things like that and pursue Christ-likeness.
The over-arching theme that I hope will shine out in this series of discussions is that as Christians we aren't called to make a sub-culture that takes secular traditions and just slightly tweaks it. We are to be in the world but not of it. We are to develop our own, Biblical worldview on issues such as music, dating, celebration of holidays, child rearing, dress standards, and I could go on and on. I also want us to evaluate one key question: Why do Christians act different from the world, and how does it show in every day life?
~Nella
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Post by guest on Oct 27, 2006 15:13:32 GMT -5
INDEFINITE PRONOUN USAGE? You have got to be kidding.
The entire ARTICLE is vague, and generalized.
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Post by nella on Oct 27, 2006 15:24:18 GMT -5
Please don't shout. This is meant to be intelligent Chistian conversation, not a big debate. I have reasonably presented what I see to be a problem with our culture. I'm not out to point fingers, just to generate discussion.
~Nella
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Post by heartofgold on Oct 28, 2006 21:44:54 GMT -5
Well I wasn't necessarily referring to you, just the world in general. I haven't heard any Baptist conspiracy theories yet.
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Post by gynovia on Oct 29, 2006 15:06:38 GMT -5
Well I wasn't necessarily referring to you, just the world in general. I haven't heard any Baptist conspiracy theories yet. lol, don't worry, there's plenty. |
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Post by heartofgold on Oct 29, 2006 22:12:19 GMT -5
Wait, seriously!? How are Baptists destroying the world?
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Post by gynovia on Oct 30, 2006 6:44:25 GMT -5
call me a punk, but I just love the powerful sound behind it, with the driving guitars, killer bass lines, smashing drums... does that make me any less of a Christian? |
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Post by nella on Oct 31, 2006 12:42:03 GMT -5
Wait, seriously!? How are Baptists destroying the world? Well, I haven't heard any conspiracy theories... ~Nella |
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Post by nella on Oct 31, 2006 12:44:15 GMT -5
I just happen to like some of the heavier metal stuff - call me a punk, but I just love the powerful sound behind it, with the driving guitars, killer bass lines, smashing drums... does that make me any less of a Christian? Nope. I use discretion - if a song has questionable lyrics, I don't listen to it. No, I wasn't trying to sound "holier than thou" or anything. I am going to address this later on Elendor, and I'll post the same thing here, too. ~Nella |
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Post by nella on Oct 31, 2006 15:00:35 GMT -5
I have added a quote to my signature that I hope you noticed and read. "I am but a man and I can err. Only let my errors be proven by Scripture and I will revoke my work and throw my books into the fire. "-- Martin Luther. If you disagree with me or think I am off, just say so, and I will answer your questions as soon as I can.
"The real danger for the majority of people is not that they are going to turn into human sacrificing Satanists, but into apathetic followers of whatever comes along, believing it to be harmless." (I found this in an article on ROC, so I can't give a proper citation.
I think everyone has wondered which side is right. I've pondered, prayed, and studied. What kind of music something that believers should listen to? And does a decision to not participate mean that we are legalistic right-wing conservative fanatics?
"Test everything," says Paul in Thessalonians, "Hold on to good. Avoid every kind of evil." Now, I'm not calling any style of music evil, but is listening to certain types of music good?
We will cover the history, understanding, and response to music.
A Brief History
Rock music at its origins was not something Christians would listen to. It was part of the counter culture of the 1960s. “Counterculture is generally used to describe a theological, culteral, attitudinal or material position that does not conform to accepted societal norms. Yet, counterculture movements are often co-opted to spearhead commercial campaigns. Thus once taboo ideas (men wearing a woman's color — pink, for example) sometimes become popular trends.” [Wikipedia]
Christians have recently been trying to adapt their music to the culture by using rock styles and rhythms. Is this like trying to combine water and oil, something we all know won't work?
A Biblical Understanding
The Bible does not say much about rock music -- at least, not specifically. However, there are verses telling us about the life style-- not music style-- we need to lead.
I will be careful to lead a blameless life
when will you come to me?
I will walk in my house
with blameless heart.
I will set before my eyes
no vile thing.
The deeds of faithless men I hate;
they will not cling to me.
Men of perverse heart shall be far from me;
I will have nothing to do with evil.
The standard the Psalmist sets for himself is indeed high, and convicting. We all know that evil things can be asociated with music. Sin corrupts everything.
A Biblical Response
So what should our response be? We need to realize that culture is not bad, but sinful people shape cultures. There are things in the world that we are not going to agree with, and we need to take a stand on those. Music with lyrics that is provocative, sensual, and immoral is obviously wrong. I think Tim Sweetman summed up every gray issue's pros and cons well.
“What we end up with is Christian discernment. When the Scriptures do not speak specifically on a topic, it is left up to the Christian. He is to follow the Spirit's calling to him on the specific issue, not his sinful self. He is to search the Scriptures for insight and understanding, instead of apathetically going with the flow of the culture that surrounds him. When he does this, God is glorified.”-- Tim Sweetman
We are not totally without guidelines, though. Colossians 3 is an excellent chapter dealing with Christian life, and it even mentions music!
“1 If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth. 3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
...
16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God. 17 And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.”
Clearly, music to the Christian was meant to instruct. There is a purpose for why we sing in the worship service! As Elise pointed out, our standards for worship should, for the most part, be the same as our standards for what we do in church. “Isn't God everywhere and see everything anyway? If something's [sic] a sin I don't think it really matters if it's in a church or not. We should only be doing holy things no matter where we are.” Very good point, Elise. Thank you for bringing it up.
I think that is about it...
~Nella
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Post by heartofgold on Oct 31, 2006 23:30:58 GMT -5
For Baptists or for Catholics? I have lots of Catholic conspiracy theories, no Baptist one's though.
Just a little side note. Martin Luther, of course, believed in salvation by faith alone. However, when showed the book of James clearly saying the opposite, he declared most emphatically that James was no longer part of the Bible. Its a lot harder to prove errors by scripture if the other guy gets to decide what scripture is (which he technically didn't have any authority to do anyway).
Anyway, I don't see any problem with listening to any type of music so long as its isn't completely immoral. Its not like you can just write off a specific type of music as evil. I don't even think all secular music is evil. Example, the Beatles. Most of their songs are completely nonsensical anyway, and the ones that make sense don't imply anything. So by listening to the Beatles I'm not doing anything wrong. If I were listening to Tenacious D, that might make a difference, but I don't.
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Post by nella on Nov 2, 2006 13:21:43 GMT -5
Anyway, I don't see any problem with listening to any type of music so long as its isn't completely immoral. Its not like you can just write off a specific type of music as evil. I don't even think all secular music is evil. Example, the Beatles. Most of their songs are completely nonsensical anyway, and the ones that make sense don't imply anything. So by listening to the Beatles I'm not doing anything wrong. If I were listening to Tenacious D, that might make a difference, but I don't. What do you think about playing that type of music in church? I think that was the main point I wanted to bring out. As Nen said, she likes the powerful sound of that music. Different strokes for different folks, that is fine. But what about in church? |
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Post by heartofgold on Nov 3, 2006 3:11:18 GMT -5
Oh, no. Straight hymns, man.
I guess it's basically what really gets you going. I'd die if I had to listen to anything but an organ every week. But people tell me, anyway, that they actually... sorda.... like that...music.
Anyway, I would definitely prefer hymns, but technically there isn't really anything wrong with playing that type of music in church (note the word "type." Actually playing the Beatles would not be a good thing).
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Post by nella on Nov 3, 2006 17:06:17 GMT -5
I like your stance. I hold it for the most part, too. I like to mix it up with some of the newer choruses, provided that the lyrics center on glorifying God. Many choruses are just shallow. Others aren't really shallow, but they aren't really deep. ('Campfire' type, youth group songs.)
~Nella
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Post by Geberia on Nov 3, 2006 18:43:10 GMT -5
Yeah I love the rich hymns. Some of the songs, like Hark the Herald Angels sing ( I know its "Christmas," but humor me) have the whole gospel message contained in them! They're very powerful. The thing is, we get so used to them.... we don't pay attention to the words and they get dull to us. Heart of Gold, I thought you PLAYED the organ. Do you not like to hear it every time in church?  |
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Post by nella on Nov 3, 2006 22:06:35 GMT -5
We have a HORRID organ-- at our house not our church-- that after being played for about 15 minutes goes flat and will not remain in tune. Turn it off for a while and vwala!
Um... I think maybe that belongs in the random section...
Yes! I love the newer songs written in the traditional style of old hymns! Keith Getty has some great stuff. He wrote "In Christ Alone" and "O Church Arise," just to name a few. Other great songs are being written by C.J. Mahaney's church. Sometimes the accompaniment can get involved, but played on the piano it sounds nice. Their vocalists are far superior to modern 'singers'. But I could go on about styles of music that I like forever.
~Nella
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Post by heartofgold on Nov 5, 2006 2:10:23 GMT -5
There's an "anything but" in there that's kinda important . |
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Post by Geberia on Nov 6, 2006 18:05:31 GMT -5
My bad ;D
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Post by nella on Nov 7, 2006 21:31:43 GMT -5
Hey, HeartofGold, do you have a source for the information you gave about Martin Luther? I do not think he really would have said that. James 1 supported what he believed.
~Nella
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Post by guest on Nov 8, 2006 8:21:45 GMT -5
I wouldn't be surprised- Martin could be a bit whacko at times, even if he was fundamentally correct.
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Post by heartofgold on Nov 8, 2006 11:38:21 GMT -5
www.biblestudy.org/question/luthjams.html...is what I found on short notice (just Google Martin Luther and the book of James and you get a lot). Its "For as the body apart from the spirit is , so also faith apart from works is ." (James 2:26) that got Martin Luther. Oh yea, his table talks are interesting. Most versions of those are highly edited. And then of course his antisemitism was pretty bad. But on the fundamentally correct part, I've heard Martin Luther used to say the Hail Mary before he preached (which would make sense, Mary didn't get kicked out 'till John Calvin). And I know for a fact that he believed very adamantly in the True Presence. So you wouldn't agreed with him either on very very many things.
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. Remember, Constantine changed the religion on the Roman Empire pretty much overnight - of course those pagan feast days were still traditional, so they had to come up with an alternative.
