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Post by falklands on Jan 23, 2006 18:38:50 GMT -5
You said this around halfway down the page:
Romans 5 states that we ARE freed from sin as soon as we accept Christ (I went over this ages ago). Romans 5:7 - "For a dead person has been absolved from sin." We have died with Christ (5:8) and are hence dead to sin and absolved from all sin. You cannot deny this.
Once again I quote Isaiah 1:18. You're already clean.
(Oh, and just in case you went straight to this page, thinking it was my response to your latest post, I've got another, longer one on the other page)
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Post by falklands on Jan 25, 2006 21:35:20 GMT -5
Further, I remember once arguing about the "Hail Marys". A point I want to make is that the word Gabriel used in greeting Mary was what it was: a greeting. Look up the Greek translation for this word and it means a salutation. OK, then we're not greeting her (I never said we were). In that case, Gabriel wasn't greeting her either. It's good enough for Gabriel, it's good enough for me. Could you provide another reason why you say "Hail Marys", since Gabriel really WAS greeting her? |
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Teckor
Full Member
.........what am I supposed to write? Something inspiring?
Posts: 154
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Post by Teckor on Jan 26, 2006 16:15:23 GMT -5
Titus 3:5.
Furthermore, Jesus died b/c we were helpless to help ourselves, otherwise, he wouldn't have. Also, this is not some sort of balancing equation with 1 good work balancing out 1 bad work. It just doesn't work like that.
Yes, we are supposed to be "Christ-like" or a "follower of Christ" (otherwise we're twisting the definition of Christian).
Also, how do you know that our sins aren't gone? What? do you have some sort of measuring device? "Yup his sins are all gone, but this guy still has one sin. Oh well, a one to one ratio of 'to Hell' and 'to Heaven' isn't bad." (And yes I"m being literal, doesn't matter if it's so much as one sin or a thousand sins, without salvation we burn for a very... very... VERY long time)
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Post by heartofgold on Jan 26, 2006 22:55:11 GMT -5
He saved us . . . by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit . . . so that we might be justified by his grace (Titus 3:5–7) Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God (John 3:5) Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:28) That's all I have for the moment. ;D You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. (James 2:19) Well actually I was getting back to the once saved always saved theory. Yes, you do need works. I just wasn't talking about them at the time (I can't remember everything we're debating  ). Well this is great, except there is no contradiction. Those verses don't explicitly state, "works are meaningless." The emphasize faith, which is great, your not going anywhere without faith, but they're just emphasizing it. Like James emphasized works. All I'm saying here is you have to do something. Your not just born into the faith, and you can lose it. The Bible talks about running the race, meaning we have to do something. We have to suffer for him, we have to spread his word, all sorts of stuff. Its not garenteed that we're good for the rest of our lives after we accept him. I'm going to give an allegory (I know you love them). If the kids father says, "eat your peas before you eat your potatoes," and the kid does so, did the kid earn the potatoes? No. It was still a gift from his father. But, he did have to eat the peas. You have to run the race. You have to have living faith. That's all I'm saying. So now we're back to, "sin does nothing." What this verse is saying is, You're not going to hell for committing a sin. You can repent and all that, and your good. This is what happened to Indulgences back when the church needed reforming (no body's going to deny it). People would go out and buy Indulgences so they could commit a sin. Now, obviously, this isn't what the church taught, but that's what happened. My point is, you can't just repent every time you commit a sin. "Oh I'll try God (man that was fun, lets do it again next week)" type of thing. But there's still a sanctification process. I'm not entirely sure where your logic jumps to after you come to the conclusion that there is a sanctification process (though I'm sure you can say the same about me, but that's beside the point ). There's a sanctification process where we try and become clean before we enter heaven. We try to become holy, perfect people. Its not over when we die, thus purgatory. The problem with all this, "your absolved from sin" stuff is your taking it so literally. What these verses say is Christ gave us the chance to live with him forever. But it doesn't mean, "I can sin all I want and it doesn't matter." But we're not sinless. If we're already clean, this is as good as it gets. We'll be this clean in heaven too. Not so nice. Once again this verse is saying our sins are forgiven (if we want them to be), but we're not sinless, which is what we want to be. Well, Hail isn't the most important part anyway. Its the, "full of grace" we're more interested in. We say it 'cause its a nice prayer to Mary, but I'm going to break it down so you all can see it. "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among woman, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus." Scripture. Straight from the bible. Can't have a problem with that. But now we get into the difficult part. "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now, and at the hour of our death." The second part goes back to asking saints to pray for us. If you have a problem with that, that's one thing, but don't have a problem with the Hail Mary just because its a Catholic prayer. True, but this goes back to the peas and the potatoes. We can do some thing for him, but not ourselves. God saves us. We need to do something in return ("render unto God's what is God's). I didn't say it was. Well, think. When was the last time you sinned? That's right. Two seconds ago (possibly, I can't actually see you, no matter what you all think ). We're all still sinning, that's pretty obvious. |
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Post by falklands on Jan 28, 2006 14:42:15 GMT -5
Look, if you were thinking I was stumped on this, think again. But really, I don't have bags of free time to make a really long post right now. Will catch up later.
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Post by heartofgold on Jan 28, 2006 19:59:57 GMT -5
I do have one question though (seeing as I'm full of answers I though I should ask one). I notice we're now up to six people who think Catholics aren't Christians. Could one of you step forward and say why? I have trouble believing we're all going to hell for believing in purgatory, so I'm assuming there's something else. What is it?
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Post by heartofgold on Jan 30, 2006 15:13:13 GMT -5
Well first off, what about the Trinity? The word "Trinity" never appears in the bible, but everyone accepts it. Why is purgatory different?
And about un-literal translations. You can't give some guy on a desert island who's never seen a bible before a bible and expect him to say, "oh yea. God's three persons in one obviously." You have to take some of the bible figuritivly. You do when it comes to, "take eat, this is my body which is shed for you" which, interestingly enough, is where Catholics take it litteraly.
Well, first off, nothing I'm saying blatantly disagrees with the bible. Its interpretational, but it doesn't blatantly disagree. Also, you blatantly disagree when it comes to the Trinity.
Heck, Catholics wrote the bible. They had to decide what was inspired scripture and what wasn't. They're teaching hasn't changed since they decided how to interpret it 2000 years ago.
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Post by Siko Michael on Jan 30, 2006 15:19:50 GMT -5
Um....Lets see God, Jesus Christ, Holy Ghost/Spirit....BAM!!!! Trinity three-in-one
more like re-wrote and mis-interpeted some hebrew, oh well at least Peter started the Catholic church, or is this a fact im messed up on? lol
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Post by heartofgold on Jan 30, 2006 15:26:57 GMT -5
How do you know its not three different people, or Jesus and the Holy Spirit aren't lesser gods? I'll tell you. CATHOLIC TRADITION!!! Nobody, (so far) even thinks about getting rid of the Trinity. Well, actually I meant the New Testament. It wasn't around on Pentecost when the church was started. They had to write it. Oh, and Protestants wrote the King James bible, not Catholics . He started the church. Then everyone else left, said, "Luther started the church! You're wrong when you say Peter started it!" and laughed at their genius. |
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Post by Siko Michael on Jan 30, 2006 15:30:12 GMT -5
whats up with the confessing to the priest shouldnt you be confessing to god/jesus christ instead of some powerless man?
siko
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Post by gynovia on Jan 30, 2006 15:53:43 GMT -5
Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost, it says in the Bible. Catholics did not write the Bible, the Catholic religion was not even around during that time. and Protestants did not "write" the King James Bible, they interpreted the Bible from the original Hebrew and Greek writings.
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Post by heartofgold on Jan 30, 2006 16:22:42 GMT -5
Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of anyone, they are forgiven; if you withhold forgiveness from anyone, it is withheld." (John 20:21-23).
I can give you some more verses later, but for now we'll just use this one. Here, its obvious that Christ gave a lot of authority to his disciples, who, in turn, would give authority to more disciples, all the way down to now. Every priest in the Catholic Church can trace the authority back to the apostles. So and so the bishop laid hands on so and so, and he became a priest, and later a bishop, who laid hands on so and so, and so on. Thus, we have authority. Now, as you can see in this verse, not only do they have the authority to hear confession, they can forgive sins as representative of Christ. Now, don't get me wrong. They can't say, "I, as priest, forgive your sins." They say, "in the name of the father, son, and holy spirit, your sins are forgiven." And even that doesn't guarantee anything, for instance, if you lied in confession, nothings going to happen whether the priest says so or not. But as representative of Christ, priests have a lot of authority.
On the contrary. You can go as far back as 100 or so A.D. to find that the Early Church were calling themselves catholics. Now, true. They probably didn't have a name at the time of the writing, but the Early Church and the Catholics are one and the same.
Well, quite frankly, it wasn't a super interpretation.
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Post by falklands on Jan 30, 2006 16:32:48 GMT -5
The washing of regeneration can only be that washing of the blood of Christ that cleanses us. The covenant sign does not in reality save (as physical circumcision did not in reality cut away sin). Only the reality saves: the blood of Christ. "Some say that water here means baptism. But that is unlikely since Christian baptism hadn't yet been instituted. If this verse did mean baptism, then the only kind that it could have been at that point was the baptism of repentance administered by John the Baptist (Mark 1:4). If that is so, then baptism isn't necessary for salvation because the baptism of repentance is no longer practiced. It is my opinion that the water spoken of here means the water of the womb referring to the natural birth process. Jesus said in verse three that Nicodemus needed to be born "again." This meant that he had been born once--through his mother. Nicodemus responds with a statement about how he can't enter again into his mother's womb to be born. Then Jesus says that he must be born of water and the Spirit. Then in verse 6 He says that "flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.." The context seems to be discussing the contrast between the natural and the spiritual birth. Water, therefore, could easily be interpreted there to mean the natural birth process. I would like to add that there are scholars who agree with the position and some who do not. Some believe that the water refers to the Word of God, the Bible, and others claim it means the Holy Spirit. You decide for yourself." "This verse is a tough one. It seems to say that baptism is part of salvation. But we know, from other scriptures that it isn't, lest there be a contradiction. What is going on here is simply that repentance and forgiveness of sins are connected. In the Greek, "repent" is in the plural and so is "your" of "your sins." They are meant to be understood as being related to each other. It is like saying, "All of you repent, each of you get baptized, and all of you will receive forgiveness." Repentance is a mark of salvation because it is granted by God (2 Tim. 2:25) and is given to believers only. In this context, only the regenerated, repentant person is to be baptized. Baptism is the manifestation of the repentance, that gift from God, that is the sign of the circumcised heart. That is why it says, repent and get baptized. " You know what I mean. Surrendering your life to God, and believing that his blood can wash away your sins. Ok, so you agree there is no contradiction. Then faith alone saves you. (If faith alone did not save you then there WOULD be a contradiction.) Not to say works are meaningless. Works are important. But works are not a part of salvation! If they were, there would be a contradiction. You agree there is not one. Therefore you must agree that works are not a part of salvation and that faith alone saves you. Now we can get back to Purgatory. Purgatory means that you have to do works (of purification) in that place or in this earth to get to heaven. If you don't do those works, then you cannot get to heaven. But the Bible says (and you agreed) that faith alone saves you and that works are not a part of salvation. Therefore Purgatory does not exist. I'll try to be forthcoming on the other issues, gotta go. |
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Post by heartofgold on Jan 30, 2006 20:28:56 GMT -5
Well first off, like I said. Your not going anywhere without God's salvation. But it isn't all that saves. You can't just say, "yea, I have God's salvation, I'm good." You have to run the race.
But yes, this verse is open to interpretation. What your saying seems a little abstract, but it works.
Well, you're wrong. Yes, baptism was going on when this passage was written, and it hasn't changed since John the Baptist. Its still a baptism of repentance. That's why it says, "repent and be baptised" in Acts.
Except this is a totally worthless passage then. "You have to be alive to be saved." Thanks for the scoop. Yes, you have to be born before you can be saved, but I think John figured people were smart enough to figure that out on their own.
I think we use contradiction a little too loosely. Just because someone emphasizes something doesn't mean that's all there is to it. There's a difference between emphasis, and declaration.
Then its still necessary for salvation. First you have to repent, then you have to get baptised. No matter how you think of it, you still have to get baptised according to this verse.
OK, we need to define faith here. What James is talking about and what I am talking about is the belief and acceptance that there is a god, and he died on the cross, all that. That's great, but unless you care, and want to be like him and all that, you're not going anywhere. That's works.
What you are talking about is just that. Faith is the active acceptance that God is God and you'd better fly right. So, in essence, you're bundling Faith and Works together into one package and calling it faith. But like I said, when James says faith, he means the kind of faith the demons have.
So in essence, we agree (I think).
Yes, no. He emphasizes faith. He doesn't say, "works are meaningless," he just says, "have faith." Which is great, you're not going anywhere without faith. Please don't think any catholic thinks differently. But that's all he's doing. Just like James didn't say, "faith is meaningless," he simply said, "have works." So there you go. Have faith, have works.
Ah, now we can get somewhere. Purgatory is not some place where you work to earn salvation. Its a place where you continue to run the race until you are purified. But its not a, "after you chop these logs you can go to heaven" place. Its just a place where you continue to be purified (as you are in this life) after death.
Oh, and once again, because I need to stress this. I'm talking about the faith the demons have. Not the active faith you're talking about.
Amen.
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Post by falklands on Jan 30, 2006 21:26:53 GMT -5
AMEN, BROTHER! No, that one-liner on my sig was a joke ;D But of course, it does have some significance  ;D  Get back to you...sometime. |
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Post by falklands on Jan 31, 2006 12:16:52 GMT -5
I am taking it just as Paul wrote it. "A dead person has been absolved from sin." That is true, and you can't say "I'll take that allegorically; he doesn't really mean a dead person has been absolved from sin". Um, no. You've gotta take it. A dead person has been absolved from sin! And in that chapter he says over and over and over again that WE ARE DEAD TO SIN! In the context this can mean nothing but the fact that we have been absolved from sin! There is absolutely no reason why he should not mean what he said.
And to make one thing clear - it DOES matter when we sin in order that grace might be increased! The first verses of that very chapter (Romans 5) explicitly state that we should not! These are the consequences to saying and doing this: "Oh, I can murder all I want 'cause God forgives every sin":
Hebrews 10:26-29: "For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?"
If you say that this is contradictory, hear this: anyone who is living a life dedicated to Christ is not going to just go murder someone because they think they won't get any consequences. If we do do that, then it will mean we have rejected Christ.
Please don't use that argument again.
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Post by falklands on Jan 31, 2006 12:22:55 GMT -5
Ok, I will use the verse alone to prove my argument.
Though our sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
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Post by Siko Michael on Jan 31, 2006 14:19:40 GMT -5
this was to his disciples not a priest, not a bishop, etc. this ppl are given their so called sin-forgiving powers by other men, not by god or the holy spirit, just some men *Playing* church . Honestly im not completely for the idea of orginized churches or orginized religion which just result in corruption and ppl who want to be god-like so they are led by satan. I personally believe that the church that is referred to in the bible reffered to every christian's individual belief in god united as individuals not as a whole corrupt church. As for the tithe issue i personally believe it better to burn your 10% then give it to some church, were the preacher/priest will just use it to get a new cadillac.
siko
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Post by falklands on Jan 31, 2006 19:16:49 GMT -5
As for the tithe issue i personally believe it better to burn your 10% then give it to some church, were the preacher/priest will just use it to get a new cadillac. Then make sure you give it to a place where it will be used for the Glory of God. Tithing need not always be towards your own church. It can be towards the cause of Christ wherever monetary needs to be met. I think it better to give your 10% where you can make sure it will do good "than give it to some church, were the preacher/priest will just use it to get a new cadillac." |
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Post by steelsheen on Jan 31, 2006 19:59:53 GMT -5
Well- I figure once I give to God, he can deal with it. So if the preacher/priest buys a cadillac, God will let him know that he isn't happy- if indeed he is not.
I'm still givin' the tenth with offering. Then again, I belong to a teenie tiny church, and I see the pastors salary in the bulletin. It's enough to bring tears to my eyes- and he has two little ones!!!
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Post by Geberia on Feb 1, 2006 12:27:13 GMT -5
Well, quite frankly, it wasn't a super interpretation. Hearofgold, you step on my toes alot when you say this becauase not only is the kind James Bible derived from the Word of God, it is the Bible I use and it is the Bible many other versions such as the NIV, NASV, ASV, etc....are based on, and many people here use those as well. Frankly, It is the Word of God and always will be. I don't have time to get into a big debate with you about how The King James and the Bible you use differ, but please don't say things like this again against the Bible I use because.....well, it really irks me, especially since alot of people here use versions based upon that translation. And I'm sorry if that sounded mean or harsh too |
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Post by Siko Michael on Feb 1, 2006 15:10:24 GMT -5
all churchs are corrupt...call me paranoid but they are...your pastor probably just bought a pepsi with your tithe money, but anyway i could agure this but really i would like to ask this question. If god controls everything why exactly would he need our tithe?... just to get you thinking! |
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Teckor
Full Member
.........what am I supposed to write? Something inspiring?
Posts: 154
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Post by Teckor on Feb 1, 2006 17:04:11 GMT -5
... not all small churches are, most likely only large ones.
Here's my reasoning, instead of being close to the people, it becomes controlled by a select few and not by the Bible or it's interpretation (ie: the Catholic Church, the Church of England, and probably many more). These "churches" have, to an extent, followed single leaders that might (or probably) weren't being led by God.
About why Catholics aren't Christians. If your "truly" a Catholic then chances are that you believe that by praying for your dead relatives, going to church, eating the bread and drinking the wine that you are going to go to purgatory to wait till God decides (or however that works) that you can come to Heaven.
Didn't Jesus say "I am the way the truth and the light, no man comes unto the Father but by me"? Or how about the fact that Jesus commonly refers to faith and how it heals people from earthly problems? So why wouldn't faith alone (seeing as that it worked for healing people) be enough to get us to Heaven? Why would Jesus have died for our sins if it wasn't so that we could go to Heaven. Still, this is probably only the tip of the ice berg.
Also, about the demons. Yes, they know the truth, but they won't accept it. I would bet a million bucks, that if Satan accepted Jesus as his personal saviour, then God would let him back in.
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Post by falklands on Feb 1, 2006 17:45:02 GMT -5
all churchs are corrupt...call me paranoid but they are...your pastor probably just bought a pepsi with your tithe money, but anyway i could agure this but really i would like to ask this question. If god controls everything why exactly would he need our tithe?... just to get you thinking! Um, I would strongly contest your position that "all churches are corrupt". Almost (that's almost) all churches I have ever been to are Godly. They are far from corrupt. Right now I go to a huge church (10,000 members), but it is so God-centred, honest, and faithful to God's commands that I would never ever consider that it is corrupt in any way. About "your pastor probably just bought a pepsi with your tithe money" - well, tithe money is the basis of all church workers' salary. That's his money to provide for his family, his food, and his possessions. Tithing is to make a sacrifice to God, to acknowledge that all you have is His (even though He has given it to you to use), and to support those who work for God's cause. |
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Post by heartofgold on Feb 1, 2006 19:10:16 GMT -5
Could you give me the verse? I need it to contest you ha ha!
But this does make me think, when you die, are you dead? Is it your body that sins, or your soul. Since as of yet nobody has come into court and said, "my hand made me do it," I'm going to go with the latter.
Though this might change if I can read the verse.
Well, isn't this contradictory? One verse says, "don't sin, you'll go to hell." The other one says, "your sins don't matter." Looks like a contradiction to me. Unless this verse means what I think it means. Christ died for you sins, but you've gotta try and run the race for anything to happen.
Well, I wouldn't exactly call Peter and the rest "playing church."
They had the authority to hand down that authority.
"I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. For it has been reported to me by Chloe's people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. What I mean is that each one of you says, "I follow Paul," or "I follow Apollos," or "I follow Cephas," or "I follow Christ." Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, so that no one may say that you were baptized in my name. (I did baptize also the household of Stephanas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power." (1 Corinthians 10-14).
Now, as you can see here, Paul isn't happy. He's not happy that these people all believe different things, because he knew that would lead to the situation we're in now. Thousands of tiny little denominations all claiming to be the right one. Now, he's saying, "everyone needs to believe the same thing," but how is that going to happen if its just "you and god"? It doesn't make sense to say, "everyone reads the bible and gets the same thing out of it."
Well, you don't have to worry about that in the Catholic Church. They aren't allowed to get Cadillacs. If you want to be a priest in the Catholic Church, its because you want to be a priest, not to earn money (though you do get free room and board I suppose).
These particular people might not be lead by God, but the church is. We're trusting God to do things, but through the pope. It doesn't matter if he's evil or not, God can still work though him. Of course, sometimes other things happen. Like God striking down the heretical pope. If that's what it takes, that's whats going to happen. But we are called to follow the pope, as he is supposed to be lead by God. And if he's not, he's still not going to get anything heretical passed (hasn't happened yet).
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