Christianity & Catholicism

[heartofgold]

I am under the firm belief that Baptism does NOT wash away your sins. You have been saying quite the opposite. You are saying that Baptism DOES wash away your sins, even without the essential repentance mentioned in Acts 2:38. However, there is no real Scriptural proof for that. All of the Bible says that it is repentance and faith that saves you. None of it says that Baptism without repentance saves you. It even stresses that simply faith saves you.

Baptism, because of what it says in the bible, washes away sin, both original and actual. Since infants have no actual sin, baptism washes away just original sin. In the case of an older person, its original and actual. Infants don't need to repent. They haven't got anything to repent for.

Paul downplayed baptism, and excluded baptism from his definitions of salvation, so there is no reason to suppose that Baptism can save.

I (personally, but there were some people who thought otherwise, Saint Augustine for one) don't think that your going to go to hell just because your not baptised. I don't think good people are going to hell just because they aren't catholic (AHEM AHEM AHEM). However, baptism is pretty darn important.

As for John 3:5, understand that there are several different interpretations besides the one that Baptism is necessary for salvation, and all of them having scriptural proof. Here are the different interpretations, quoted from the website I got some of my arguments from:

"The water refers to the natural birth.

Um, define the natural birth. I'm not entirely sure what that means. I mean, I guess you do have to be alive to get salvation.

The water refers to the Word of God.

So now, instead of being a rock, its like water. That's not good.

The water refers to the Holy Spirit.

Maybe, except that right afterwards they talk about the spirit. "...you have to be born of the spirit and the spirit" doesn't make any sense.

The water refers to the ministry of John the Baptist.

Yea, you know what John the Baptist did, HE BAPTISED PEOPLE.

The water refers to the water of baptism as a requirement for salvation."

Well, like I said, I have trouble believing good people go to hell for not being baptised, but I don't know, it is pretty darn important.

[falklands]

Baptism, because of what it says in the bible, washes away sin, both original and actual. Since infants have no actual sin, baptism washes away just original sin. In the case of an older person, its original and actual. Infants don't need to repent. They haven't got anything to repent for.

So, if Baptism really does wash away sins without repentance, if you don't have anything to repent for, then there's no reason to get baptized. If you grow up sinless (which is not going to happen actually), then what will Baptism do? Wash away a nonexistent sin? Jesus, who was completely and totally sinless, got baptised. If it's for washing away sins, then Jesus didn't need to get baptized.

I repeat, nowhere in the Bible does it talk about Baptism apart from repentance. It much more often talks of repentance, not mentioning Baptism (although Baptism is very important, I acknowledge)

Paul downplayed baptism, and excluded baptism from his definitions of salvation, so there is no reason to suppose that Baptism can save.

I (personally, but there were some people who thought otherwise, Saint Augustine for one) don't think that your going to go to hell just because your not baptised. I don't think good people are going to hell just because they aren't catholic (AHEM AHEM AHEM). However, baptism is pretty darn important.

You didn't properly answer my statement, did you? Paul downplayed Baptism while stressing salvation by faith. Not to say that Baptism is not important. But please take the point.



Here's the quote from that website describing the five different interpretations. Then I don't have to labouriously explain each one to you.

The first option looks to the context of Jesus' words dealing with being born "again" (3:3). Nicodemus responds by mentioning the experience of being born from the womb (v. 4). Jesus then speaks of water and the Spirit and then says, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (3:6). The implication is that the first birth is the natural birth and the second birth is the spiritual birth. In other words, the water refers to the water of the womb -- the first birth. This seems to have support in the understanding of Nicodemus about entering into the womb to be born a second time. However, this view is not the most commonly held view.
The second option holds that the water is referring to the Word of God. Eph. 5:26 says, "that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word." Some believe that the washing of water is done by means of the Word of God.
The third view says that the water refers to the Holy Spirit. Perhaps Nicodemus was reminded of Ezek. 36:25-27, "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26"Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27"And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances." Certainly, Jesus' own words are applicable here when He says in John 7:37-39, "Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If any man is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. 38"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.'" 39But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified."
The fourth view holds that the water is in reference to the water baptism of repentance taught by John the Baptist. Matt. 3:1-6 describes John's ministry in the desert, his teaching about repentance, and baptizing people into that repentance. Contextually, the first chapter of John mentions John the Baptist in verses 6-8 and 19-36. Certainly, John and his ministry is in view here. If this is the case, then Jesus would have been speaking of the "baptism" (the initiatory ordinance) of repentance preached by John the Baptist.
The fifth view is the one held by the International Church of Christ and other churches that require baptism in order to be saved. They state that the water is referring to baptism and that it is essential to salvation.

[torc]

If you only followed the rituals and went ot mass and did good works, basically "acted ike a good catholic" then no. What matters if FAITH. and salvation from it.

However, the same goes for every denomination, the church does not save you, only God does.

Go Luther!

[heartofgold]

So, if Baptism really does wash away sins without repentance, if you don't have anything to repent for, then there's no reason to get baptized. If you grow up sinless (which is not going to happen actually), then what will Baptism do? Wash away a nonexistent sin? Jesus, who was completely and totally sinless, got baptised. If it's for washing away sins, then Jesus didn't need to get baptized.

Its for washing away original sin. That's something you want to get rid of. There's a difference between original sin and actual sin. Actual sin is the act of sinning, you went out and killed someone, that's and actual sin. Original sin is what came into our world as a result of the fall.

The question of why Jesus had to be baptised is one, everyone can ask no matter what baptism is. For instance, why did he have to symbolize being born again if he was God? That's one of those theological question for the ages.

You didn't properly answer my statement, did you? Paul downplayed Baptism while stressing salvation by faith. Not to say that Baptism is not important. But please take the point.

That's great. Except that Paul is talking about Church division. He's saying he's happy he wasn't baptising people because they thought they were being baptised into his church, not Christ's. He's saying division is bad.

Go Luther!

*cough cough cough*

Here's the quote from that website describing the five different interpretations. Then I don't have to labouriously explain each one to you.


Quote:The first option looks to the context of Jesus' words dealing with being born "again" (3:3). Nicodemus responds by mentioning the experience of being born from the womb (v. 4). Jesus then speaks of water and the Spirit and then says, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (3:6). The implication is that the first birth is the natural birth and the second birth is the spiritual birth. In other words, the water refers to the water of the womb -- the first birth. This seems to have support in the understanding of Nicodemus about entering into the womb to be born a second time. However, this view is not the most commonly held view.
The second option holds that the water is referring to the Word of God. Eph. 5:26 says, "that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word." Some believe that the washing of water is done by means of the Word of God.
The third view says that the water refers to the Holy Spirit. Perhaps Nicodemus was reminded of Ezek. 36:25-27, "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26"Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27"And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances." Certainly, Jesus' own words are applicable here when He says in John 7:37-39, "Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If any man is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. 38"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.'" 39But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified."
The fourth view holds that the water is in reference to the water baptism of repentance taught by John the Baptist. Matt. 3:1-6 describes John's ministry in the desert, his teaching about repentance, and baptizing people into that repentance. Contextually, the first chapter of John mentions John the Baptist in verses 6-8 and 19-36. Certainly, John and his ministry is in view here. If this is the case, then Jesus would have been speaking of the "baptism" (the initiatory ordinance) of repentance preached by John the Baptist.
The fifth view is the one held by the International Church of Christ and other churches that require baptism in order to be saved. They state that the water is referring to baptism and that it is essential to salvation.

Well, frankly, I sill don't have any reason to change my answer. The first one still seems like, "you have to be alive and human to be saved." Thanks for the scoop. The second one seems a little off. Nowhere is the bible referred to as water. And we still run into, "...and on this rock I will build my church" saying the bible is a rock, and now we're turning it into water later. The third one still doesn't make any sense. The fourth one seems a little abstract. I mean, "to be saved you have to have the ministry of John the Baptist" just seems a little weird. The fifth ones still good though.

[Teckor]

heartofgold said:

Firstly, yes there are many bad people/groups out there. Not even the Catholic Church is immune though.

I didn't say it was.



We have two choices here. Either salvation is a process, which would explain why the bible refers to it in all three tenses, or it happens instantly, in which case we should all be sinless now. Since we're not all sinless now, that leaves us with the former.



We appear to be back at the whole faith/works thing. I'm going to use Falklands take on it, as I though he worded it best.
The good works thing doesn't mean you go out and find little old ladies to help across the street to get "heaven points," but if a little old lady asks you to help her across the street, you'd better not say, "buzz off! I hope you get hit by a car," and leave. Thats all I'm trying to say.

Because a lot of us might have conflicting views but aren't all out to get Heartofgold. But then, there's the minority group that gets annoying (the people that think heartofgold's going to Hell)

Falklands, I've just decided you can be in my administration when I take over the world. You were, after all, the only person to publicly say you'd vote for me, so I though I'd reward you. I hope your happy.

Firstly, we are no longer held accountable for our sins because of Jesus's death.

And that is all that I have to complain about this statement

But about baptisms, John the Baptist did say that Jesus would "baptize" people with the Holy Ghost, which could be a metaphor of his death, his cleansing of us. John didn't say that his baptisms were important.

[awaz]

But, even though Jesus dies for our sins we still must accept it. We aren't just born into the faith.

[heartofgold]

Firstly, we are no longer held accountable for our sins because of Jesus's death.

So I can sin all I want and it won't matter? That seems a little strange, since the New Testament spends a lot of time telling us how to live our lives when it really doesn't matter.

[Teckor]

heartofgold said:

Firstly, we are no longer held accountable for our sins because of Jesus's death.

So I can sin all I want and it won't matter? That seems a little strange, since the New Testament spends a lot of time telling us how to live our lives when it really doesn't matter.

Your putting words in my mouth. But seeing as that we've already debated this before, again and again, then fine, you believe whatever you want, I'm tired of restating what I've said before.

[falklands]

heartofgold said:

So I can sin all I want and it won't matter? That seems a little strange, since the New Testament spends a lot of time telling us how to live our lives when it really doesn't matter.

Let's decide on something here: by saying that we are cleansed from all our sins does NOT mean that we are free to go on sinning all we want! So now you don't have to bring that up again.

[falklands]

Ok heartofgold, let's take baptism at face value here: either it is completely necessary for salvation, and anyone who does not receive it will go to hell, or it is not necessary for salvation (although we must do it by the command of Jesus) and those who believe yet are not baptised will still go to heaven. You can't have it any other way.

First example:

Fred got baptized as an infant at his old church. Today, he hasn't yet professed belief in Jesus Christ but has not rejected him either. He gets in a car crash and dies. By Catholic standards, he would go to heaven.

Billy confessed faith in Jesus Christ when he was 22. He lived a life that glorified God but had not yet made the decision to get baptized. He also got in a car crash. By Catholic standards, he would go to hell.

You really can't say "Well, it is necessary for salvation, but then, it isn't actually." Either you go to Hell for not getting baptized or you go to Heaven for believing in Jesus Christ regardless of baptism.

[falklands]

To open up the saints&praying debate again, I know Catholics (perfectly good ones too) who, say, pray TO St. Anthony, the saint of "finding things". This person was muttering when she was trying to find something: "St. Anthony, please help me find this". Makes me think: the saints in heaven are not omniscient. Catholics seem to act like they are.

[heartofgold]

Your putting words in my mouth. But seeing as that we've already debated this before, again and again, then fine, you believe whatever you want, I'm tired of restating what I've said before.

OK, I've thought that's what you were saying this whole time, so if you could make very clear for me what you mean by that statement, then we can get somewhere.

Billy confessed faith in Jesus Christ when he was 22. He lived a life that glorified God but had not yet made the decision to get baptized. He also got in a car crash. By Catholic standards, he would go to hell.

No. God is not limited by the Cathecism of the Catholic Church. He's not going to say, "Oh, Billy died today. Better get him up- oh wait. He wasn't baptised. Down he goes, man, I wish we could change that." God looks at the heart. Consider the thief on the cross. He wasn't baptised, didn't have time. But he was saved.
However, baptism is pretty darn important. But no catholic is going to say, "every (insert denomonation that doesn't baptise here) is going to hell."

Fred got baptized as an infant at his old church. Today, he hasn't yet professed belief in Jesus Christ but has not rejected him either. He gets in a car crash and dies. By Catholic standards, he would go to heaven

No. This would be the same thing as saying baptism is the only thing required for salvation. Even Catholics don't say that.

To open up the saints&praying debate again, I know Catholics (perfectly good ones too) who, say, pray TO St. Anthony, the saint of "finding things". This person was muttering when she was trying to find something: "St. Anthony, please help me find this". Makes me think: the saints in heaven are not omniscient. Catholics seem to act like they are.

What if you were standing next to me and I said, "Falklands, help me find this." Does that make you omniscient? No. The same deal comes around when you actually ask saints to pray for you. If I say, "Falklands, pray for me," does that make you omniscient? No. Saints aren't omniscient. Just asking them to pray for us doesn't make them omniscient.

[falklands]

What if you were standing next to me and I said, "Falklands, help me find this." Does that make you omniscient? No. The same deal comes around when you actually ask saints to pray for you. If I say, "Falklands, pray for me," does that make you omniscient? No. Saints aren't omniscient. Just asking them to pray for us doesn't make them omniscient.

She was actively praying TO St. Anthony to help her find things. I heard her. I have trouble with the idea that people in Heaven can relate to us in exactly the same way as we do between ourselves, and the idea that saints can hear the voices/prayers of everyone who prays at them.

[falklands]

Billy confessed faith in Jesus Christ when he was 22. He lived a life that glorified God but had not yet made the decision to get baptized. He also got in a car crash. By Catholic standards, he would go to hell.



No. God is not limited by the Cathecism of the Catholic Church. He's not going to say, "Oh, Billy died today. Better get him up- oh wait. He wasn't baptised. Down he goes, man, I wish we could change that." God looks at the heart. Consider the thief on the cross. He wasn't baptised, didn't have time. But he was saved.
However, baptism is pretty darn important. But no catholic is going to say, "every (insert denomonation that doesn't baptise here) is going to hell."


Quote:Fred got baptized as an infant at his old church. Today, he hasn't yet professed belief in Jesus Christ but has not rejected him either. He gets in a car crash and dies. By Catholic standards, he would go to heaven



No. This would be the same thing as saying baptism is the only thing required for salvation. Even Catholics don't say that.

My point was, either baptism is necessary for salvation or it isn't. There's no "in-between."

[falklands]

heartofgold said:

Firstly, we are no longer held accountable for our sins because of Jesus's death.

So I can sin all I want and it won't matter? That seems a little strange, since the New Testament spends a lot of time telling us how to live our lives when it really doesn't matter.

We are no longer held accountable for our sins because of Jesus' death. But that does not mean we can sin all we want, as evidenced in Romans 5:2-3 (or whereabouts). We can't sin all we want and fear no consequences. If we keep on living a life of sin, we are effectively despising Jesus' crucifixion and are falling away from the faith. There are consequences. But "“We have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.” (Heb. 10:10)"

[awaz]

But if we repeat the sin over and over and over we are sorta taking for granted what Christ did.

[heartofgold]

My point was, either baptism is necessary for salvation or it isn't. There's no "in-between."

In general, yes, it is necessary for salvation. So there you go.

We are no longer held accountable for our sins because of Jesus' death. But that does not mean we can sin all we want, as evidenced in Romans 5:2-3 (or whereabouts). We can't sin all we want and fear no consequences. If we keep on living a life of sin, we are effectively despising Jesus' crucifixion and are falling away from the faith. There are consequences. But "“We have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.” (Heb. 10:10)"

But we are sorda accountable for our sins (I'm not sure how best to word this). For instance, the prodigal son came back and repented. Why did he repent if he wasn't accountable for his sins? If none of us are accountable for our sins, then we're all going to be sinning in heaven, making it not such a good place.

But this all goes back to the sanctification process. I think salvation is a process, its not a, "once your born again, your home free! Your no longer accountable for your sins." Because you are accountable for your sins. When you do something bad, you repent, because you are held accountable.

[falklands]

[qoute]In general, yes, it is necessary for salvation. So there you go.[/quote]

Ah, but you're being non-commital. You said "in general". I need an even firmer answer. If it is necessary for salvation you'll go to Hell if you don't get it. It's that simple.

are sorda accountable for our sins (I'm not sure how best to word this). For instance, the prodigal son came back and repented. Why did he repent if he wasn't accountable for his sins? If none of us are accountable for our sins, then we're all going to be sinning in heaven, making it not such a good place.

But this all goes back to the sanctification process. I think salvation is a process, its not a, "once your born again, your home free! Your no longer accountable for your sins." Because you are accountable for your sins. When you do something bad, you repent, because you are held accountable.

Isaiah 1:18: "18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. "

It's pretty plain there, isn't it?

Heb. 10:10: "We have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

He said "once for all." He didn't say "we have been made holy for a little bit".

John 19:30: Jesus said, "It is finished."

"Jesus bore our sins in His body, paid the penalty for them, and died. He said, "It is finished." In Greek, the phrase, "It is finished" is one word, tetelestai. In ancient Greek papyri texts that were receipts for taxes, when a debt was paid in full, the word tetelestai, was written on the document. This meant that the debt had been paid in full. In other words, Jesus had finished the work of atonement. But not only atonement (to make amends, to make right), but also of propitiation (turning away God’s wrath). He had fully paid the debt invoked by the sinner. There was nothing more to be done... It was finished."

Yet Purgatory is saying that we must suffer for sins not covered by baptism and not covered by the cross. It is saying that Christ's death was not enough and that it was not finished. It says that we must do works (albeit of suffering) to complete the cleansing of the Cross. This amounts to getting to Heaven by works. It implies that the person must do more than what the Law of God requires of him.

When Jesus said, "It is finished," all that was necessary in the atonement was concluded and all in Christ were justified. We cannot complete or add to Christ’s work through our suffering. Purgatory contradicts this.

[awaz]

As far as who goes to heaven or not; I trust God to do the right thing.

[heartofgold]

Ah, but you're being non-commital. You said "in general". I need an even firmer answer. If it is necessary for salvation you'll go to Hell if you don't get it. It's that simple.

Well, this is the same deal we had in the Faith vs. Works thing. You need works to get to heaven. But are people saved on their deathbed going to hell? Its not really really firm. So, in general, yes. You do need it. But there are some people who haven't got it who are going to heaven.

Isaiah 1:18: "18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. "

It's pretty plain there, isn't it?

I don't mean we're accountable for our sins and must be punished accordingly, what I'm really trying to say is forgiveness requires some participation on our part. No forgive-o-matics here (Hi, I'm a miner from West Virgina).

Heb. 10:10: "We have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

He said "once for all." He didn't say "we have been made holy for a little bit".

John 19:30: Jesus said, "It is finished."

"Jesus bore our sins in His body, paid the penalty for them, and died. He said, "It is finished." In Greek, the phrase, "It is finished" is one word, tetelestai. In ancient Greek papyri texts that were receipts for taxes, when a debt was paid in full, the word tetelestai, was written on the document. This meant that the debt had been paid in full. In other words, Jesus had finished the work of atonement. But not only atonement (to make amends, to make right), but also of propitiation (turning away God’s wrath). He had fully paid the debt invoked by the sinner. There was nothing more to be done... It was finished."

Yet Purgatory is saying that we must suffer for sins not covered by baptism and not covered by the cross. It is saying that Christ's death was not enough and that it was not finished. It says that we must do works (albeit of suffering) to complete the cleansing of the Cross. This amounts to getting to Heaven by works. It implies that the person must do more than what the Law of God requires of him.

When Jesus said, "It is finished," all that was necessary in the atonement was concluded and all in Christ were justified. We cannot complete or add to Christ’s work through our suffering. Purgatory contradicts this.

Purgatory, first off, isn't just some upper level of hell. Its not going to be any worse than we are right now that's for sure. And its not a place where you're tortured for sins not covered by Christ. This goes back the the assumption that Salvation is a process. Your not just instantly forgiven forever when you accept Christ. You do have to work at it. That's our goal in life is to be like Christ, to be completely free from sin. So there's you process. Now, the process isn't over when we die, so where do we go? "Down to 'ell you weren't good enough" doesn't make much sense to me, and "come on up! Nobody will think any worse of you for being so dirty," doesn't make much sense to me either, as nothing unclean should enter heaven. That leaves purgatory.

[falklands]

heartofgold said:

Well, this is the same deal we had in the Faith vs. Works thing. You need works to get to heaven. But are people saved on their deathbed going to hell? Its not really really firm. So, in general, yes. You do need it. But there are some people who haven't got it who are going to heaven.

If there are some people who haven't got it who are going to heaven, then Baptism isn't really necessary for Salvation. If you believe in Jesus Christ, then you will be saved. No doubt about it. If you aren't baptized, you will still be saved. Justification by Jesus Christ is never in the Bible equated with Baptism. If you believe, and you are saved, then you will go to heaven regardless of baptism. That's about it. We shouldn't identify the importance of baptism with salvation. We should get baptized, yes. But Baptism does not affect our salvation.

With the old Faith/Works thing, I think you have misunderstood the concept of having to do works to get to heaven. Faith without works must be dead. But not having the chance to do works never equates with a dead faith, obviously. If you've just been saved, then your faith is not dead, but living, and therefore can save you. People who get saved on their deathbeds are always saved. Saying that it's "not really firm" implies that some might not go to heaven even though they've just been saved, and amounts to saying "oops! I forgot to do a good work in the few seconds before I died! Aw, now I'm going to Hell..."

I don't mean we're accountable for our sins and must be punished accordingly, what I'm really trying to say is forgiveness requires some participation on our part. No forgive-o-matics here (Hi, I'm a miner from West Virgina).

Forgiveness (salvation/justification) requires only belief on our part. It is Sancification (completely different from justification) that requires participation on our part.

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."
Rom. 3:22, "even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction."
Rom. 3:24, "being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"
Rom. 3:26, "for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."
Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
Rom. 4:3, "For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
Rom. 4:11, "And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,"
Rom. 4:16, "Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all."
Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
Rom. 5:9, "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him."
Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."
Rom. 9:33, "just as it is written, “Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”
Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
Rom. 10:9-10, "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10 for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."
Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
Gal. 2:21, “I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”
Gal.3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
Gal. 3:8, "And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed in you."
Gal. 3:14, "in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."
Gal. 3:22, "But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."
Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."
Eph. 1:13, "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise."
Eph. 2:8, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God."
Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."
1 Tim. 1:16, "And yet for this reason I found mercy, in order that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience, as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life."

Purgatory, first off, isn't just some upper level of hell. Its not going to be any worse than we are right now that's for sure. And its not a place where you're tortured for sins not covered by Christ.

According to Catholic Doctrine, it is a place where you are cleansed by fire, right? It still implies that we must do good works to get into Heaven. Jesus said "it is finished". When we believe, it is finished. We need do nothing more. And look up at the quotes above.

This goes back to the the assumption that Salvation is a process. Your not just instantly forgiven forever when you accept Christ. You do have to work at it. That's our goal in life is to be like Christ, to be completely free from sin. So there's you process. Now, the process isn't over when we die, so where do we go? "Down to 'ell you weren't good enough" doesn't make much sense to me, and "come on up! Nobody will think any worse of you for being so dirty," doesn't make much sense to me either, as nothing unclean should enter heaven. That leaves purgatory.

Wow. You're confusing Salvation with Sanctification. Salvation is NOT a process! Salvation is by grace through faith alone, and when you believe, you are saved. It's no gradual process. If Salvation was a process then when you died and hadn't "completed" that process, you wouldn't be saved and would then go to Hell. Salvation is by faith alone.

"Justification is the work of God where the righteousness of Jesus is reckoned to the sinner so the sinner is declared by God as being righteous under the Law (Rom. 4:3; 5:1,9; Gal. 2:16; 3:11). This righteousness is not earned or retained by any effort of the saved. Justification is an instantaneous occurrence with the result being eternal life. It is based completely and solely upon Jesus' sacrifice on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24) and is received by faith alone (Eph. 2:8-9). No works are necessary whatsoever to obtain justification. Otherwise, it is not a gift (Rom. 6:23). Therefore, we are justified by faith (Romans 5:1)."

"Sanctification, on the other hand, involves the work of the person. But it is still God working in the believer to produce more of a godly character and life in the person who has already been justified (Phil. 2:13). Sanctification is not instantaneous because it is not the work of God alone. The justified person is actively involved in submitting to God's will, resisting sin, seeking holiness, and working to be more godly (Gal. 5:22-23). Significantly, sanctification has no bearing on justification. That is, even if we don't live a perfect life, we are still justified."

So Sanctification is a process in that it is God working in you and with you to be a more Godly person. However, any sins we have commited and will commit have been washed away by the blood of Christ. We are already white as snow. I quote Isaiah once more:

Isaiah 1:18: "18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. "

If that's the case, then we are already purified before we die, no matter what sins we commit. It IS the case, because the Bible says it right there.

Also, remember that quote from Jeremiah about the time when God will "remember our sins no more?" Well, it is speaking of the new covenant in Christ, and is mentioned in Hebrews 8 as a fulfilled prophecy. So God remembers our sins no more.

[Teckor]

Heartofgold, be very glad that I am not entirely prone to angry outbursts.

However, you seem to leave several questions unanswered. Questions such as:
Why did Jesus die then if there's a santification process?
Why would Jesus say "It is finished" right before he dies?
Why would Jesus have died if that wasn't the "be all and end all"?

Furthermore, about your statement that if we're cleansed of our sins immediately that then we can sin all we want b/c it won't matter, is easily reversed. Even with a "santification process", we can still sin all we want b/c when we die, we're going to have a bath that'll clean us up. Sure it may take several thousand years (which still doesn't make sense since then your supporting the idea that there is some sort of ratio between sins and time) but eventually you'll get to Heaven.



Pretty good arguements Falklands.

[falklands]

teckor said:

Furthermore, about your statement that if we're cleansed of our sins immediately that then we can sin all we want b/c it won't matter, is easily reversed. Even with a "santification process", we can still sin all we want b/c when we die, we're going to have a bath that'll clean us up. Sure it may take several thousand years (which still doesn't make sense since then your supporting the idea that there is some sort of ratio between sins and time) but eventually you'll get to Heaven.

Hey, I didn't think of that! Good one Teckor.

Pretty good arguements Falklands.

W00t! ;D

[heartofgold]

If there are some people who haven't got it who are going to heaven, then Baptism isn't really necessary for Salvation. If you believe in Jesus Christ, then you will be saved. No doubt about it. If you aren't baptized, you will still be saved. Justification by Jesus Christ is never in the Bible equated with Baptism. If you believe, and you are saved, then you will go to heaven regardless of baptism. That's about it. We shouldn't identify the importance of baptism with salvation. We should get baptized, yes. But Baptism does not affect our salvation.

Well, first off, if Baptism doesn't affect our salvation, why does the Bible say it does? Second, God doesn't have set categories. He doesn't sit up there and go, "this guy falls in such and such category and this category over here, so he goes to heaven." There are guidelines (such as baptism), but God doesn't have to stay in the guidelines. For the most part, yes, Baptism is necessary for salvation, like the bible says. But there are going to be special cases.

With the old Faith/Works thing, I think you have misunderstood the concept of having to do works to get to heaven. Faith without works must be dead. But not having the chance to do works never equates with a dead faith, obviously. If you've just been saved, then your faith is not dead, but living, and therefore can save you. People who get saved on their deathbeds are always saved. Saying that it's "not really firm" implies that some might not go to heaven even though they've just been saved, and amounts to saying "oops! I forgot to do a good work in the few seconds before I died! Aw, now I'm going to Hell..."

Yes, I'm saying that people saved on their deathbeds are not going to hell. That makes a special case to the faith/works deal. In general, you need works, but there are going to be special cases.

Forgiveness (salvation/justification) requires only belief on our part. It is Sancification (completely different from justification) that requires participation on our part.

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."
Rom. 3:22, "even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction."
Rom. 3:24, "being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"
Rom. 3:26, "for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."
Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
Rom. 4:3, "For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
Rom. 4:11, "And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,"
Rom. 4:16, "Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all."
Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
Rom. 5:9, "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him."
Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."
Rom. 9:33, "just as it is written, “Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”
Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
Rom. 10:9-10, "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10 for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."
Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
Gal. 2:21, “I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”
Gal.3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
Gal. 3:8, "And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed in you."
Gal. 3:14, "in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."
Gal. 3:22, "But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."
Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."
Eph. 1:13, "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise."
Eph. 2:8, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God."
Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."
1 Tim. 1:16, "And yet for this reason I found mercy, in order that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience, as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life."

Yes, that's all I'm saying (sorry to make you go and get all those verses and have me agree with you ). But forgiveness isn't going to happen if we don't believe. Or if we did believe, and now don't.

According to Catholic Doctrine, it is a place where you are cleansed by fire, right? It still implies that we must do good works to get into Heaven. Jesus said "it is finished". When we believe, it is finished. We need do nothing more. And look up at the quotes above.

You do have to do good works to get into heaven. I thought we already had this debate.

If we don't have to do anything more, this is as good as it gets. This is heaven. Not a super place is it. We have to have works. We have to have faith. There, we have to do something. This isn't it. We have to get rid of our sin with God's help. Its obviously not gone yet, so that's our goal in life. To be like Christ. We're not there yet. We have to do something.

Wow. You're confusing Salvation with Sanctification. Salvation is NOT a process! Salvation is by grace through faith alone, and when you believe, you are saved. It's no gradual process.

Don't make me quote James again, please.

Oh, and don't confuse me with facts. I was tired when I wrote that .

"Justification is the work of God where the righteousness of Jesus is reckoned to the sinner so the sinner is declared by God as being righteous under the Law (Rom. 4:3; 5:1,9; Gal. 2:16; 3:11). This righteousness is not earned or retained by any effort of the saved. Justification is an instantaneous occurrence with the result being eternal life. It is based completely and solely upon Jesus' sacrifice on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24) and is received by faith alone (Eph. 2:8-9). No works are necessary whatsoever to obtain justification. Otherwise, it is not a gift (Rom. 6:23). Therefore, we are justified by faith (Romans 5:1)."

"Sanctification, on the other hand, involves the work of the person. But it is still God working in the believer to produce more of a godly character and life in the person who has already been justified (Phil. 2:13). Sanctification is not instantaneous because it is not the work of God alone. The justified person is actively involved in submitting to God's will, resisting sin, seeking holiness, and working to be more godly (Gal. 5:22-23). Significantly, sanctification has no bearing on justification. That is, even if we don't live a perfect life, we are still justified."

Too true. I agree with you wholeheartedly my good man.

So Sanctification is a process in that it is God working in you and with you to be a more Godly person. However, any sins we have commited and will commit have been washed away by the blood of Christ. We are already white as snow. I quote Isaiah once more:

Isaiah 1:18: "18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. "

If that's the case, then we are already purified before we die, no matter what sins we commit. It IS the case, because the Bible says it right there.

We're having misunderstandings here, so I'm going to try again.

Our goal in life is to be like Christ. Christ was completely sinless, not some random guy who's sins were taken care of by someone else, so he could sin all he wanted. We want to be sinless. That's what we strive for. While yes, we're not going to hell for one sin, we still want to get rid of it. If all our sins are taken care of, why try? We're good so long as we believe. I believe in Jesus, and I believe he's going to take care of all my sin, so if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go kill someone. Using your logic, I'd go to heaven. I believed, and all my sins are in God's hands.
We're trying to become sinless, that's the sanctification process.

However, you seem to leave several questions unanswered. Questions such as:
Why did Jesus die then if there's a santification process?

All I mean by sanctification process is we're trying to get sinless. That's it. Trying to be like Christ.

Why would Jesus say "It is finished" right before he dies?

Probably because that's what it was. His mission on earth was finished, so he said so. I'm stating the obvious though. We're still sinning, we're trying to get rid of it. That's it.

Why would Jesus have died if that wasn't the "be all and end all"?

Did we all become completely sinless after he died? That's what was supposed to happen using your logic. Its not going to be done 'till we're all sinless. His death gave us that chance.

Furthermore, about your statement that if we're cleansed of our sins immediately that then we can sin all we want b/c it won't matter, is easily reversed. Even with a "santification process", we can still sin all we want b/c when we die, we're going to have a bath that'll clean us up. Sure it may take several thousand years (which still doesn't make sense since then your supporting the idea that there is some sort of ratio between sins and time) but eventually you'll get to Heaven.

Except that the only people going to purgatory are people going to heaven. And your not going to heaven if your a bad person. Your not going to purgatory either. If you don't run the race, your not going to get to run it in the afterlife.

[falklands]

heartofgold said:

Well, first off, if Baptism doesn't affect our salvation, why does the Bible say it does? Second, God doesn't have set categories. He doesn't sit up there and go, "this guy falls in such and such category and this category over here, so he goes to heaven." There are guidelines (such as baptism), but God doesn't have to stay in the guidelines. For the most part, yes, Baptism is necessary for salvation, like the bible says. But there are going to be special cases.

I hold that the Bible does NOT say that Baptism is necessary for salvation. It is a covenant sign of your salvation, but not a part of salvation. I know there are some verses which might be construed as to provide evidence for Baptism, but bring 'em up and I'll contest your intepretation ;D

Yes, I'm saying that people saved on their deathbeds are not going to hell. That makes a special case to the faith/works deal. In general, you need works, but there are going to be special cases.

They are not special cases, but are simply people who have believed in Jesus Christ. If you believe in Jesus Christ, you will be saved and there will be no doubt as to whether you go to heaven.

Rom. 10:9-10, "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10 for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"

Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."

Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."

Yes, that's all I'm saying (sorry to make you go and get all those verses and have me agree with you ). But forgiveness isn't going to happen if we don't believe. Or if we did believe, and now don't.

So in your quote before that forgiveness requires some participation on our part only refers to faith? I hope so... Oh, and by your statements in these posts you don't seem to be agreeing with me at all ;D

You do have to do good works to get into heaven. I thought we already had this debate.

Apparently you misunderstood me in the debate.

"The scriptures clearly teach that we are saved (justified) by faith in Christ and what He has done on the cross. This faith alone saves us. However, we cannot stop here without addressing what James says in James 2:24, "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."
There is no contradiction. All you need to do is look at the context. James chapter 2 has 26 verses: Verses 1-7 instruct us to not show favoritism. Verses 8-13 are comments on the Law. Verses 14-26 are about the relationship between faith and works.
James begins this section by using the example of someone who says he has faith but has no works, "What use is it, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him?" (James 2:14). In other words, James is addressing the issue of a dead faith, that is nothing more than a verbal pronouncement, a public confession of the mind, and is not heart-felt. It is empty of life and action. He begins with the negative and demonstrates what an empty faith is (verses 15-17, words without actions). Then he shows that that type of faith isn't much different from the faith of demons (verse 19). Finally, he gives examples of living faith that has words followed by actions. Works follow true faith and demonstrate that faith to our fellow man, but not to God. James writes of Abraham and Rahab as examples of people who demonstrated their faith by their deeds.
In brief, James is examining two kinds of faith: one that leads to godly works and one that does not. One is true, and the other is false. One is dead, the other alive; hence, "Faith without works is dead," (James 2:20). But, he is not contradicting the verses above that say salvation/justification is by faith alone.
Also, notice that James actually quotes the same verse that Paul quotes in Rom. 4:3 amongst a host of verses dealing with justification by faith. James 2:23 says, "and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, ‘and Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.'" If James was trying to teach a contradictory doctrine of faith and works than the other New Testament writers, then he would not have used Abraham as an example. Therefore, we can see that justification is by faith alone and that James was talking about false faith, not real faith when he said we are not justified by faith alone."

If we don't have to do anything more, this is as good as it gets. This is heaven. Not a super place is it. We have to have works. We have to have faith. There, we have to do something. This isn't it. We have to get rid of our sin with God's help. Its obviously not gone yet, so that's our goal in life. To be like Christ. We're not there yet. We have to do something.

"To ‘justify’ means ‘acquit’, ‘declare righteous’, the opposite of ‘condemn’. It means to not be guilty of breaking the Law and to be deemed as righteous by the standard of the Law.
God gave the Law, i.e, the 10 commandments. The Law is a reflection of God’s character and it is a perfect standard of righteousness which no one can keep. Since no one is able to keep God’s Law, no one can be justified by the Law (Rom. 3:20). There is, therefore, none righteous (Rom. 3:10-12). This is the problem of all people. We have all broken God’s Law and are in need of justification, of being declared righteous in God’s sight. This can only be done through the Messiah, our sin bearer.
Jesus is the one who took our place on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24), became sin on our behalf (2 Cor. 5:21), and turned away the wrath of God from us (Rom. 5:9) by being a propitiation (1 John 2:2) that turned away the wrath of God. He was punished in our place. Therefore, Jesus was our substitution. The righteous work of Christ is imputed to the believer by grace (Titus 3:7) and through faith (Rom. 5:1). This justification is a legal action on the part of God ‘reckoning’ the believer as having satisfied the Law — all of the Law.
It necessarily follows that to be justified in God’s eyes, is to be fully justified. It is not ‘part’ of the Law that must be satisfied, but all of it. Perfection is the standard. Likewise, it is not ‘part’ of our sins that were born by Christ, but all of them. This justification includes all of the sins of the believer (past, present, and future) or else we could not be justified."

Don't make me quote James again, please.

Look at explanation above.

Oh, and don't confuse me with facts. I was tired when I wrote that .

Argh! I went to all that trouble to prove that Salvation is not a process and is instantaneous just because you made a typo... ;D

Too true. I agree with you wholeheartedly my good man.

Apparently not ;D

Our goal in life is to be like Christ. Christ was completely sinless, not some random guy who's sins were taken care of by someone else, so he could sin all he wanted. We want to be sinless. That's what we strive for. While yes, we're not going to hell for one sin, we still want to get rid of it. If all our sins are taken care of, why try? We're good so long as we believe. I believe in Jesus, and I believe he's going to take care of all my sin, so if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go kill someone. Using your logic, I'd go to heaven. I believed, and all my sins are in God's hands.
We're trying to become sinless, that's the sanctification process.

Of course there's a santification process. We try to live more holy lives, with God's help. But whatever sins we commit in our daily lives are not held against us. Hence Isaiah 1:18: "18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. " If Purgatory existed Isaiah 1:18 would be false.

Probably because that's what it was. His mission on earth was finished, so he said so. I'm stating the obvious though. We're still sinning, we're trying to get rid of it. That's it.

"Jesus bore our sins in His body, paid the penalty for them, and died. He said, "It is finished." In Greek, the phrase, "It is finished" is one word, tetelestai. In ancient Greek papyri texts that were receipts for taxes, when a debt was paid in full, the word tetelestai, was written on the document. This meant that the debt had been paid in full. In other words, Jesus had finished the work of atonement. But not only atonement (to make amends, to make right), but also of propitiation (turning away God’s wrath). He had fully paid the debt invoked by the sinner. There was nothing more to be done... It was finished."