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Post by steelsheen on Jan 13, 2006 13:44:35 GMT -5
(scribbles out perscription) Here. Ritalin. Take two and see if you can remember to call me! ;D
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Post by heartofgold on Jan 14, 2006 0:06:34 GMT -5
Hey, you want anger, I give you anger. You want passion, I give you passion ("Don't do it Jerry!" "I have to, but don't worry, we'll always have that one city who's name we can't pronounce." *kiss end of movie* from Casablanca, good movie.) You want love, I give you... well.. you're gonna have to look somewhere else for that. You want Power I give you some, for a fee.... (I'm going to rule the world you know).
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Post by falklands on Jan 14, 2006 12:05:50 GMT -5
But I'm going to rule the universe you know.
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Post by falklands on Jan 14, 2006 14:55:25 GMT -5
Ok...you wanted some debate to start again. I'll start it again, over the issue of infant baptism. Everywhere in the Bible it speaks of grown adults getting baptized (after they have confessed faith in Jesus), and says that you must "believe and be baptized." Of course, infants have no knowledge of baptism, and have not made any conscious decision to follow Christ. It would be unbliblical, then, to keep on baptizing infants, thinking this would help with their salvation when they don't even have the capacity to believe.
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Post by heartofgold on Jan 14, 2006 20:43:29 GMT -5
OK, I love this topic ;D. Actually, thats where confirmation comes in. Once the kid gets old enough to get whats going on, then he's confirmed, and able to do stuff in the church (like take communion). The big reason Catholics baptize as infants is because of that verse (I think its in Acts) that I mentioned earlier. The one about salvation and all that. Also, the view on baptism is its the washing away of original sin, don't you want to get that done as soon as possible? Oh, and we're up to five people now...  |
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Post by falklands on Jan 15, 2006 17:00:13 GMT -5
That was never Catholic Doctrine. Sorry. That was a bunch of evil people twisting meanings. You said this about the people paying money to recieve salvation. What meaning was originally intended? |
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Post by falklands on Jan 15, 2006 17:08:48 GMT -5
Actually, thats where confirmation comes in. Once the kid gets old enough to get whats going on, then he's confirmed, and able to do stuff in the church (like take communion). I should think that when that kid understands his need for salvation he should make that decision himself to get saved, not just participate in traditions and ceremonies. Um, you said earlier; I'm not going to say Baptism alone is what saves you. That would contradict everything I just said. Baptism is, however, extremely important (hence Acts 2:38). By performing infant baptism, you are acknowledging that it washes away sins without repentance and without the infant's conscious assent. Hmmm... |
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Post by heartofgold on Jan 15, 2006 23:59:17 GMT -5
This brings up Indulgences, which I can't explain very well, so I'm going to give you someone who can (yes thats right, another article...). Here's one that expels certain myths about Indulgences, and gives you a basic outline of the whole doctrine. www.catholic.com/library/myths_about_indulgences.aspWell, thats where confirmation comes in. If the kid doesn't want to get confirmed, nobody's going to make him (unless its his parents, which if it is, then yes, its just a bunch of traditions and ceremonies ). We already went through this. Yes, at baptism you wash away original sin, get the holy spirit, all that. So now your in the boat. But there's nothing stopping you from jumping overboard. Its not like you're making this kid make a life-changing decision before he can. Plus, why wouldn't the kid want to get rid of sin? And if he doesn't he can jump overboard when he's old enough to realize he wants to. |
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Post by falklands on Jan 16, 2006 14:43:33 GMT -5
It doesn't have any meaning unless it is that person's OWN decision! Yes, the Bible says "Repent and be Baptized," but without repentance baptism will have no effect.
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Teckor
Full Member
.........what am I supposed to write? Something inspiring?
Posts: 154
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Post by Teckor on Jan 16, 2006 16:00:40 GMT -5
This brings up Indulgences, which I can't explain very well, so I'm going to give you someone who can (yes thats right, another article...). Here's one that expels certain myths about Indulgences, and gives you a basic outline of the whole doctrine. www.catholic.com/library/myths_about_indulgences.aspUnfortunately, I'm not going to let it drop that the Roman Catholic Church got the money from the "pay to get out" plan. Furthermore, I'm still of the personal opinion that there is no reason for purgatory (see former arguements). |
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Teckor
Full Member
.........what am I supposed to write? Something inspiring?
Posts: 154
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Post by Teckor on Jan 16, 2006 16:02:47 GMT -5
(scribbles out perscription) Here. Ritalin. Take two and see if you can remember to call me! ;D Furthermore, ritalin takers are able to remeber without ritalin, it just makes it much easier for ppl with ADD and other similar syndromes (etc.) to concentrate on the immediate subject, etc. Just to clear up any of the misconceptions about ritalin takers. |
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Post by heartofgold on Jan 16, 2006 19:06:52 GMT -5
OK, I'm not going to let it drop that a lot of churches I've seen and heard of pass around the offering five or six times trying to get more money. I'm not going to drop all the TV evangelists whose goal is solely to make money. Welcome to the world of people.
I've seen your arguments, lets do this one more time.
There is a sanctification processs, I think we all agreed on that.
That sanctification process isn't over when we die. I think we could agree on that too.
Thus purgatory. You gotta get cleaned up somewhere along the line before you get into heaven.
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Post by falklands on Jan 17, 2006 12:32:32 GMT -5
It doesn't have any meaning unless it is that person's OWN decision! Yes, the Bible says "Repent and be Baptized," but without repentance baptism will have no effect. Heartofgold, I thought you loved this topic. Answer? ;D ;D ;D |
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Post by heartofgold on Jan 17, 2006 12:45:54 GMT -5
Sorry, busy debating Teckor, forgot about you (it wasn't intentional, its just that everyones against me so I lose track).
Well, thats where confirmation comes in. Baptism is the parents decision, thats their job, to decide whats best for their kid. Then comes confirmation. Thats when the kid makes the decision himself.
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Post by falklands on Jan 17, 2006 12:52:53 GMT -5
I am talking about Salvation here. Confirmation does nothing if you haven't already made a personal decision to follow Christ. Baptism, likewise, does nothing if you haven't made the decision yourself (like infants). The Bible said "Repent and be baptized". You can't just be baptized without repenting. An infant does not have the mental capacity to repent to God of his sins and make the conscious decision to get baptized. Where does Salvation come in in all of this? Definitely not at baptism. Confirmation? That's getting introduced to the rites and ceremonies of the church, which don't save you. But look at Romans 10:9: "If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. " Not if you unthinkingly get baptized. Not if you start taking communion and going to confessions. Only this.
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Teckor
Full Member
.........what am I supposed to write? Something inspiring?
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Post by Teckor on Jan 17, 2006 16:40:37 GMT -5
OK, I'm not going to let it drop that a lot of churches I've seen and heard of pass around the offering five or six times trying to get more money. I'm not going to drop all the TV evangelists whose goal is solely to make money. Welcome to the world of people. Off topic (at least, a little bit), "physical" baptism itself isn't really important, it's the baptism of the Holy Ghost that is. Remember what John the Baptist said? "I baptize you with water but there is one greater than me who will baptize you with the Holy Spirit". I've seen your arguments, lets do this one more time. There is a sanctification processs, I think we all agreed on that. That sanctification process isn't over when we die. I think we could agree on that too. Thus purgatory. You gotta get cleaned up somewhere along the line before you get into heaven. Firstly, yes there are many bad people/groups out there. Not even the Catholic Church is immune though. Secondly, I haven't agreed that the "sanctification process" is a "process". Titus 5:3 (or is it 3:5) states that we are not saved by works/deeds of righteousness. Furthermore, Jesus said at the last supper that his blood would be spilt for the remission of sins (or "forgiveness', etc). Plus, why would Jesus have died then? Why would he have said "It is finished" when he died? It just doesn't make any sense. Also, then your implying that Jesus's death wasn't enough. Furthermore, you also imply that there is some sort of ratio b/w time and sin that somehow enables you to reach "near" perfection or close enough that you might as well be perfect. Besides, how else are you cleansed by your sins but by soemone/something pure taking your place. P.S. Heartofgold, not everyone is necessarily against u, but many of us have a different opinion. And note to all, (just to act as a reminder to us all) we all are entitled to our opinion. |
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awaz
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Post by awaz on Jan 17, 2006 19:19:28 GMT -5
If no one's for him, how is no one against him?
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Post by falklands on Jan 17, 2006 20:15:19 GMT -5
Because a lot of us might have conflicting views but aren't all out to get Heartofgold. But then, there's the minority group that gets annoying (the people that think heartofgold's going to Hell)
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Post by heartofgold on Jan 17, 2006 21:12:56 GMT -5
I didn't say it was.
We have two choices here. Either salvation is a process, which would explain why the bible refers to it in all three tenses, or it happens instantly, in which case we should all be sinless now. Since we're not all sinless now, that leaves us with the former.
We appear to be back at the whole faith/works thing. I'm going to use Falklands take on it, as I though he worded it best.
The good works thing doesn't mean you go out and find little old ladies to help across the street to get "heaven points," but if a little old lady asks you to help her across the street, you'd better not say, "buzz off! I hope you get hit by a car," and leave. Thats all I'm trying to say.
Falklands, I've just decided you can be in my administration when I take over the world. You were, after all, the only person to publicly say you'd vote for me, so I though I'd reward you. I hope your happy.
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Post by falklands on Jan 17, 2006 21:15:08 GMT -5
Bad news, heartofgold. I said I would vote for you. But only if I could. And, as it happens, I can't. I have severed ties in NationStates while still keeping my nations alive, but I don't intend to come back. So, I am full of blessings but no works. As a result, my faith is dead ;D
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Post by falklands on Jan 17, 2006 21:18:17 GMT -5
We appear to be back at the whole faith/works thing. I'm going to use Falklands take on it, as I though he worded it best. The good works thing doesn't mean you go out and find little old ladies to help across the street to get "heaven points," but if a little old lady asks you to help her across the street, you'd better not say, "buzz off! I hope you get hit by a car," and leave. Thats all I'm trying to say. Um, my point there was that works should not be a checklist you should consult. Works come with Faith, but if they don't, your faith must be dead. However, if you see works actively coming along with faith, then that person's faith must be living. It is Living faith that saves you, not dead faith. Works are a demonstration of living faith. |
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Post by falklands on Jan 17, 2006 21:21:30 GMT -5
Oh, and Teckor distracted you from the Baptism thing again. I suppose you'll go to some Catholic website, find a supposed answer to my arguments, copy the URL, and say "sorry, but I'm going to give you someone who really can explain Infant Baptism to you. Here it is: www.catholic.com/qiw4y5oaiuwdhliuw4yoqiwu43tloijas" ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D |
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Post by heartofgold on Jan 17, 2006 23:53:45 GMT -5
Alright, I'll do one better. I'll go to the catholic website, read the article, then, instead of giving it to you, I'll tell you what it says. That will make everyone happy. ;D
I think the problem is what we all think baptism is. I think, because of verses like Acts 2:38 (verse 39 adds "... the promise to you and you children) and John 3:5, Baptism really is the washing away of sin, which does work if your an infant. Its not just symbolic. Also, there's the verses about Jesus suffering the little children to come to him, a sign that infant baptism is OK.
And about the fact that no children seem to get baptised in the bible. No, it doesn't explicitly state, "John, and infant, was baptised that day," but it does say things like "...so and so (don't remember names) and his household were baptised." Indicating that the children were baptised as well.
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awaz
Junior Member
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Post by awaz on Jan 18, 2006 12:10:07 GMT -5
I don't think children or babies or anyone like that is going to go to ell. I think infant baptism is just a way for the parents of the children to feel safe that if their kid spontaneously dropped dead the kid won't go to hell. I do, however believe that their is an age of accountability, at which any child knows what is right or wrong, and at that time they must decide for themselves who they will serve, God or the Devil (I think that age is diffrent for everyone).
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Post by falklands on Jan 18, 2006 13:48:52 GMT -5
I think the problem is what we all think baptism is. I think, because of verses like Acts 2:38 (verse 39 adds "... the promise to you and you children) and John 3:5, Baptism really is the washing away of sin, which does work if your an infant. Its not just symbolic. Also, there's the verses about Jesus suffering the little children to come to him, a sign that infant baptism is OK. And about the fact that no children seem to get baptised in the bible. No, it doesn't explicitly state, "John, and infant, was baptised that day," but it does say things like "...so and so (don't remember names) and his household were baptised." Indicating that the children were baptised as well. I am under the firm belief that Baptism does NOT wash away your sins. You have been saying quite the opposite. You are saying that Baptism DOES wash away your sins, even without the essential repentance mentioned in Acts 2:38. However, there is no real Scriptural proof for that. All of the Bible says that it is repentance and faith that saves you. None of it says that Baptism without repentance saves you. It even stresses that simply faith saves you. Rom. 3:22, "even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction." Rom. 3:26, "for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus." Rom. 3:28, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law." Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness." Rom. 5:1, "Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ," Gal. 3:8, "And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham." Gal. 3:24 , "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith." Eph. 2:8, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God." Paul says this: "I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel..." (1 Cor. 1:14-17). Paul downplayed baptism, and excluded baptism from his definitions of salvation, so there is no reason to suppose that Baptism can save. As for John 3:5, understand that there are several different interpretations besides the one that Baptism is necessary for salvation, and all of them having scriptural proof. Here are the different interpretations, quoted from the website I got some of my arguments from: "The water refers to the natural birth. The water refers to the Word of God. The water refers to the Holy Spirit. The water refers to the ministry of John the Baptist. The water refers to the water of baptism as a requirement for salvation." If the last interpretation is not the only one, we should think otherwise if the rest of the Bible says otherwise. |
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